Re: Starting, Bench-Sitting, and Questioning the Status Quo

by Guest 17/04/12, 01:17 pm

girlovestacos wrote:
deepthoughts wrote:
Larrythesoccerguy wrote:
I didn't read your entire post because it was giving me tired head. But the problem in academy is that too many kids aren't playing on a team that fits their skill level. If you aren't playing much you should find a lower level team that needs you.

First, I'm sorry about the length. I did get on a bit of a roll. There are a lot of aspects to the issue.

Second, I understand your point about finding a team that your kid will start on, but that was not my point at all. If the coaches and parent's expectations can't change, your solution is logical; however, that would simply continue the current North Texas competitive soccer path where some 25% of the hopeful young ladies in North Texas soccer get their confidence shot down at a very early age with unknown longer-term ramifications, while their parents spend around $3K a year for that privilege.

As a coach, there shouldn't be a bench player in any club setting. If you choose the players you want to play for your team and every single player hasn't what you believe to be the right stuff to start then the error is with the coach not the player. Either the coach was wrong or hasn't the skill to bring out the best in the player they saw at tryout.

Or....Bottom line is money, many coaches will take a player or several on at a higher skill level team to pay his club dues. We parents aren't idiots, just hopeful that the sales pitch the coach is giving us will pan out. This is the very reason there is so much discord in the club soccer world, everybody is working their angle to make a nonprofit organization profitable to them. Club soccer stopped being about development when clubs and coaches realized that they could raise their fees after a good statistical season.

Many will defend the status quo, it is ok to do so. Society used to defend the burning of witches too, that doesn't make it right, but at the time it was ok to do so. Many tell their kids "it is a tough, dog eat dog world out there and you should prepare for it". We should be saying, "go and make a difference, change the world to what you want it to be". So, go make a difference, Deepthoughts is trying to.

by Guest 17/04/12, 01:19 pm

"What do you think? Do you think a No-Bench Revolution can work in North Texas and spread to the rest of the country? If so, parents will have to be the one’s that start the NBR. We do ultimately pay the checks and the customer is always right."

sadly it will never make it off the ground. Americans can't stand losing teams and will bail to a winning team. its in our dna and we will forever pay the price for it in youth soccer

by imabee 17/04/12, 01:43 pm

This reminds me of the whole participation trophy phenomenon. And how everyone should be a winner. Thanks for coming.

When I was little and we had field day, 1st place got a blue ribbon and 2nd got red. People knew you were the best and you wanted to be the best. Last year my kindergartener got a pink ribbon for 1st in her race. Come on. Evil or Very Mad

The best should start - unless of course there are disciplinary issues. If you want to start - get better or go to another team where you are the best.

by deepthoughts 17/04/12, 01:45 pm

silentparent wrote:"What do you think? Do you think a No-Bench Revolution can work in North Texas and spread to the rest of the country? If so, parents will have to be the one’s that start the NBR. We do ultimately pay the checks and the customer is always right."

sadly it will never make it off the ground. Americans can't stand losing teams and will bail to a winning team. its in our dna and we will forever pay the price for it in youth soccer

I disagree that having a team of 16 great kids that all have games where they start wins less often than a team of 11 great kids, and 5 kids that feel second rate. I also realize that some kids will usually get more playtime than others but playtime details are not nearly as obvious to kids unless their parents stopwatch every game and then foolishly discuss it in front of their kid. The NBR is not picking development over results. It may be arguing for more development effort by the coach initially, but the pay off should be a better-than-ever team, less turnover, less headaches with unhappy parents, and steady $$$ business for the club.

by javajake 17/04/12, 01:52 pm

imabee wrote:This reminds me of the whole participation trophy phenomenon. And how everyone should be a winner. Thanks for coming.

When I was little and we had field day, 1st place got a blue ribbon and 2nd got red. People knew you were the best and you wanted to be the best. Last year my kindergartener got a pink ribbon for 1st in her race. Come on.

The best should start - unless of course there are disciplinary issues. If you want to start - get better or go to another team where you are the best.

Do you think your team better off when the same XI start every game? Why? I'm sure you feel better off because your DD is one of the XI. But why is it better for the TEAM?

by Larrythesoccerguy 17/04/12, 01:58 pm

I know of a team that actually tried this one time this season to please the bench players parents. All of the bench players started and their team was down 3 to 0 within the first five minutes. It wasn't much fun for anyone and really hurt the morale of the whole team.

by imabee 17/04/12, 02:02 pm

javajake wrote:
imabee wrote:This reminds me of the whole participation trophy phenomenon. And how everyone should be a winner. Thanks for coming.

When I was little and we had field day, 1st place got a blue ribbon and 2nd got red. People knew you were the best and you wanted to be the best. Last year my kindergartener got a pink ribbon for 1st in her race. Come on.

The best should start - unless of course there are disciplinary issues. If you want to start - get better or go to another team where you are the best.

Do you think your team better off when the same XI start every game? Why? I'm sure you feel better off because your DD is one of the XI. But why is it better for the TEAM?

Yes, the keeper should start EVERY game! I want the BEST to start and finish the games - with subs in between of course. I don't think that means the same 11 start every game. I think players performance changes throughout the season, and I have seen several players performance improve and falter and I think it should be reflected in play time. My DD is a starter and she play like a starter - MOST of the time.

by deepthoughts 17/04/12, 02:15 pm

Larrythesoccerguy wrote:I know of a team that actually tried this one time this season to please the bench players parents. All of the bench players started and their team was down 3 to 0 within the first five minutes. It wasn't much fun for anyone and really hurt the morale of the whole team.

Sounds like a team that did not develop its bench to have the confidence and ability near that of the starters. Some coaches carry girls on their team that should not be there for the income alone, which is a related but different problem. But I believe, more often than not, it is confidence that has be lost within those bench girls.

by imabee 17/04/12, 02:26 pm

deepthoughts wrote:
Larrythesoccerguy wrote:I know of a team that actually tried this one time this season to please the bench players parents. All of the bench players started and their team was down 3 to 0 within the first five minutes. It wasn't much fun for anyone and really hurt the morale of the whole team.

Sounds like a team that did not develop its bench to have the confidence and ability near that of the starters. Some coaches carry girls on their team that should not be there for the income alone, which is a related but different problem. But I believe, more often than not, it is confidence that has be lost within those bench girls.

Ok - about confidence. In my opinion, it is the responsibility of the parents to build confidence in their children. It is our role to help them learn. Failing at something provides a tremendous teachable moment. I have always told people that I lead - it is more telling to see how you react to a failure than a success. If you are not able to provide a teachable moment for your children when you put them in these situations, you are not doing what you should as a parent in order to develop them into productive and successful adults.

If the people you are choosing to surround your children with are not helping in your development of your children, then pull them away from those people. Do not blame them for anything. Any experience is a learning experience.

by Larrythesoccerguy 17/04/12, 02:34 pm

deepthoughts wrote:
Larrythesoccerguy wrote:I know of a team that actually tried this one time this season to please the bench players parents. All of the bench players started and their team was down 3 to 0 within the first five minutes. It wasn't much fun for anyone and really hurt the morale of the whole team.

Sounds like a team that did not develop its bench to have the confidence and ability near that of the starters. Some coaches carry girls on their team that should not be there for the income alone, which is a related but different problem. But I believe, more often than not, it is confidence that has be lost within those bench girls.

Many academy teams start with a random group of kids. As the team develops, some kids don't keep up. The kids that practice at home and put in the time to get better deserve to be the starters. The kids that just show up to practice and don't put in the extra work need to learn how to work harder to be a starter. This is part of development. If you just drop your kid off with the coach for two hours a week and expect your kid to be a stud you are going to be severely disappointed. The coach can only do so much. If you want your kid to be a good player, it's up to you as the parent to help them develop. Quit blaming everything on the coach.

by deepthoughts 17/04/12, 02:51 pm

Perhaps I'm not crazy. Here is a private message that I received from a coach who prefers to stay anonymous but gave me permission to post his comments:

I fully agree with you and have this method in many of my games, starting line changes almost every game. It is decided upon weekly and every child gets to start at least 25% of the time. We also have some other ideas such as for every minimum practices to start, completing your homework and other items. It seems like a nutty idea and the looks I got from parents by starting a perceived reserve in a tourney is priceless. But I do what I think is best for the kids. But go figure I feel like a lone wolf.

Sometimes actually I think it worked better for my boys. We had a tourney match where I had my best six players to sit for the first 10 minutes. I was getting text messages and screams from the sideline. The reserves scored the first goal. When are starters watch the match and saw the holes they went in a steam rolled them I don't believe the other team got but 1 shot on net the rest of the game. End score was 4 nil or something like that but it should have been 10 nil.

by Guest 17/04/12, 02:55 pm

"I was getting text messages and screams from the sideline"

texting the coach during a game?

not sure whether to laugh or cry.......

by imabee 17/04/12, 03:00 pm

silentparent wrote:"I was getting text messages and screams from the sideline"

texting the coach during a game?

not sure whether to laugh or cry.......

Didn't you see The Blindside? Very Happy

by Guest 17/04/12, 03:05 pm

imabee wrote:
silentparent wrote:"I was getting text messages and screams from the sideline"

texting the coach during a game?

not sure whether to laugh or cry.......

Didn't you see The Blindside?

just had this vision of a bunch of 04 helicopter parents furiously texting the coach cheers

by Guest 17/04/12, 03:15 pm

silentparent wrote:"I was getting text messages and screams from the sideline"

texting the coach during a game?

not sure whether to laugh or cry.......

What, NO GOOD? How else am I supposed to tell him when she is ready to play and when to give her a rest and what position she is supposed to play? Cell phones are great, I used to just have to yell across the field with my older sons. GEEEEEEZZZZZ!!!

by RoidRage 17/04/12, 03:25 pm

imabee wrote:This reminds me of the whole participation trophy phenomenon. And how everyone should be a winner. Thanks for coming.

When I was little and we had field day, 1st place got a blue ribbon and 2nd got red. People knew you were the best and you wanted to be the best. Last year my kindergartener got a pink ribbon for 1st in her race. Come on.

The best should start - unless of course there are disciplinary issues. If you want to start - get better or go to another team where you are the best.

I agree with you. Everyone wants everything given to them. What happened to earning it? Self-esteem isn't something you hand out like candy. Self esteem is earned thru hardwork and accomplishing something that you couldn't do before! Do you think when your kid gets in the business world that they will just be given a raise...NO...well unless you work for the govt or a union...but that's a whole nother topic! I think if all the kids know they will eventually start no matter how hard they work will lessen the accomplishment for them. I would rather my dds coach tell my dd that she practiced her butt off this week and earned this start and I think she would appreciate it better and learn that that's what it takes to start! That's just my .02 cents!

by imasoccerfreak 17/04/12, 03:37 pm

So what if your dd doesn't start, but gets equal play time with starters? Does that mean you should shop? Isn't it possible that there is a strategy there? Or is that parent deluding himself?

by javajake 17/04/12, 03:54 pm

imasoccerfreak wrote:So what if your dd doesn't start, but gets equal play time with starters? Does that mean you should shop? Isn't it possible that there is a strategy there? Or is that parent deluding himself?

I'm sure all coaches are different but why does your coach not alternate who starts in your case?

by bigtex75081 17/04/12, 03:55 pm

What about the other side of the coin... If your DD starts every single game, maybe you should consider switching teams so that she'll be more challenged. There are a couple posts on here with proclamations that their DD is a “starter”. Those posts imply that their DD is some type of immovable fixture. Why not take it up a notch then? Why not look for a team where she has to start earning her minutes all over again?

by Guest 17/04/12, 04:02 pm

"What about the other side of the coin... If your DD starts every single game, maybe you should consider switching teams so that she'll be more challenged. There are a couple posts on here with proclamations that their DD is a “starter”. Those posts imply that their DD is some type of immovable fixture. Why not take it up a notch then? Why not look for a team where she has to start earning her minutes all over again?"

whoaaaaaaaaaa!!!!! slow down there pardner. all that big talk of the best starting and working hard from the bench etc, that's for those OTHER kids not THEIR DD...........

by imabee 17/04/12, 04:05 pm

bigtex75081 wrote:What about the other side of the coin... If your DD starts every single game, maybe you should consider switching teams so that she'll be more challenged. There are a couple posts on here with proclamations that their DD is a “starter”. Those posts imply that their DD is some type of immovable fixture. Why not take it up a notch then? Why not look for a team where she has to start earning her minutes all over again?

That's funny. My DD is very happy where she is and to change teams just because she is a top contributor is ridiculous. She is 11 and having a blast with her teammates and friends. Nothing is more important than that. Except if she loses her starting position - HA!

by javajake 17/04/12, 04:06 pm

RoidRage wrote:
imabee wrote:This reminds me of the whole participation trophy phenomenon. And how everyone should be a winner. Thanks for coming.

When I was little and we had field day, 1st place got a blue ribbon and 2nd got red. People knew you were the best and you wanted to be the best. Last year my kindergartener got a pink ribbon for 1st in her race. Come on.

The best should start - unless of course there are disciplinary issues. If you want to start - get better or go to another team where you are the best.

I agree with you. Everyone wants everything given to them. What happened to earning it? Self-esteem isn't something you hand out like candy. Self esteem is earned thru hardwork and accomplishing something that you couldn't do before! Do you think when your kid gets in the business world that they will just be given a raise...NO...well unless you work for the govt or a union...but that's a whole nother topic! I think if all the kids know they will eventually start no matter how hard they work will lessen the accomplishment for them. I would rather my dds coach tell my dd that she practiced her butt off this week and earned this start and I think she would appreciate it better and learn that that's what it takes to start! That's just my .02 cents!

There are two schools of thinking. (1) - Life is tough and too bad if you don't get a chance. Its good for the few that rise to the occasion. The rest are going to flunk out and thats the way it should be. Survival of the fittest. OR (2) - DDs should get every opportunity to succeed because not all of them a huge fast and strong at 10 years old. Seems like parents fall into one camp or the other. Not much in between. When I was growing up, the first time you didn't make a team was high school. I am leaning toward #2. Coaches that think that winning is everything should stick to U15 and above. Its sad but in NTX, you can be a loser, fail and done long before high school.

by Larrythesoccerguy 17/04/12, 04:14 pm

bigtex75081 wrote:What about the other side of the coin... If your DD starts every single game, maybe you should consider switching teams so that she'll be more challenged. There are a couple posts on here with proclamations that their DD is a “starter”. Those posts imply that their DD is some type of immovable fixture. Why not take it up a notch then? Why not look for a team where she has to start earning her minutes all over again?

That really doesn't make sense. Just because you are a starter doesn't mean you aren't challenged. Why would I take away playing time that she has worked so hard to earn? Maybe we like the coach? Maybe my DD likes her teammates.

Some of you guys need to face facts. If your upset that your DD isn't a starter, you should help your daughter improve and not try to just demand that the coach start her.

There are many better options for building her confidence.
-Form a 3v3 team with some of her friends
-Do extra skills classes
-Let her play in an additional rec league to get some goals
-Practice with her at home

If your kid doesn't have the desire to try and earn a starting job, maybe she just don't have the passion for the sport. In my opinion, out of all of the youth sports, soccer takes the longest amount of time to see real long term improvement. Either your DD is willing to put in the work or she isn't. On the flip side of that, some parents aren't willing to put in the extra time to help their DD improve.

by Guest 17/04/12, 04:20 pm

Larrythesoccerguy wrote:
bigtex75081 wrote:What about the other side of the coin... If your DD starts every single game, maybe you should consider switching teams so that she'll be more challenged. There are a couple posts on here with proclamations that their DD is a “starter”. Those posts imply that their DD is some type of immovable fixture. Why not take it up a notch then? Why not look for a team where she has to start earning her minutes all over again?

That really doesn't make sense. Just because you are a starter doesn't mean you aren't challenged. Why would I take away playing time that she has worked so hard to earn? Maybe we like the coach? Maybe my DD likes her teammates.

Some of you guys need to face facts. If your upset that your DD isn't a starter, you should help your daughter improve and not try to just demand that the coach start her.

There are many better options for building her confidence.
-Form a 3v3 team with some of her friends
-Do extra skills classes
-Let her play in an additional rec league to get some goals
-Practice with her at home

If your kid doesn't have the desire to try and earn a starting job, maybe she just don't have the passion for the sport. In my opinion, out of all of the youth sports, soccer takes the longest amount of time to see real long term improvement. Either your DD is willing to put in the work or she isn't. On the flip side of that, some parents aren't willing to put in the extra time to help their DD improve.

Once again, i got mine, buzz off. you didn't answer the question why not reach for a better team even if you have to ride the bench? remember gotta have that passion, put in the work, get extra skills etc. what's good for the goose isn't apparently good for the gander..... Rolling Eyes

by Larrythesoccerguy 17/04/12, 04:25 pm

javajake wrote:
RoidRage wrote:
imabee wrote:This reminds me of the whole participation trophy phenomenon. And how everyone should be a winner. Thanks for coming.

When I was little and we had field day, 1st place got a blue ribbon and 2nd got red. People knew you were the best and you wanted to be the best. Last year my kindergartener got a pink ribbon for 1st in her race. Come on.

The best should start - unless of course there are disciplinary issues. If you want to start - get better or go to another team where you are the best.

I agree with you. Everyone wants everything given to them. What happened to earning it? Self-esteem isn't something you hand out like candy. Self esteem is earned thru hardwork and accomplishing something that you couldn't do before! Do you think when your kid gets in the business world that they will just be given a raise...NO...well unless you work for the govt or a union...but that's a whole nother topic! I think if all the kids know they will eventually start no matter how hard they work will lessen the accomplishment for them. I would rather my dds coach tell my dd that she practiced her butt off this week and earned this start and I think she would appreciate it better and learn that that's what it takes to start! That's just my .02 cents!

There are two schools of thinking. (1) - Life is tough and too bad if you don't get a chance. Its good for the few that rise to the occasion. The rest are going to flunk out and thats the way it should be. Survival of the fittest. OR (2) - DDs should get every opportunity to succeed because not all of them a huge fast and strong at 10 years old. Seems like parents fall into one camp or the other. Not much in between. When I was growing up, the first time you didn't make a team was high school. I am leaning toward #2. Coaches that think that winning is everything should stick to U15 and above. Its sad but in NTX, you can be a loser, fail and done long before high school.

Your wrong. The great thing about soccer in North Texas is that you can find a level for any type of player. Find a team where your DD can be a starter and possibly work their way up to better teams. Would it be fair for some "below average" player to show up to SRSA 03 and demand to be on their team and to be a starter? Of course not. Those kids weren't born good soccer players, they worked hard and earned it. They have real passion for the game and put in extra time outside of team practices. It's not their coach that wants to win. It's the kids. They have real passion and I applaud them for that.

by bigtex75081 17/04/12, 04:29 pm

silentparent wrote:
Larrythesoccerguy wrote:
bigtex75081 wrote:What about the other side of the coin... If your DD starts every single game, maybe you should consider switching teams so that she'll be more challenged. There are a couple posts on here with proclamations that their DD is a “starter”. Those posts imply that their DD is some type of immovable fixture. Why not take it up a notch then? Why not look for a team where she has to start earning her minutes all over again?

That really doesn't make sense. Just because you are a starter doesn't mean you aren't challenged. Why would I take away playing time that she has worked so hard to earn? Maybe we like the coach? Maybe my DD likes her teammates.

Some of you guys need to face facts. If your upset that your DD isn't a starter, you should help your daughter improve and not try to just demand that the coach start her.

There are many better options for building her confidence.
-Form a 3v3 team with some of her friends
-Do extra skills classes
-Let her play in an additional rec league to get some goals
-Practice with her at home

If your kid doesn't have the desire to try and earn a starting job, maybe she just don't have the passion for the sport. In my opinion, out of all of the youth sports, soccer takes the longest amount of time to see real long term improvement. Either your DD is willing to put in the work or she isn't. On the flip side of that, some parents aren't willing to put in the extra time to help their DD improve.

Once again, i got mine, buzz off. you didn't answer the question why not reach for a better team even if you have to ride the bench? remember gotta have that passion, put in the work, get extra skills etc. what's good for the goose isn't apparently good for the gander.....

I think it's a little hypocritical for a parent of a "star starter" to instruct a parent of a "bench player" to find another team.

If you DD is a "star starter" then, in all seriousness, she's probably not being challenged by her teammates during practice. She's also probably not getting the harshest feedback from a coach that doesn't want to jeopardize losing her. Your DD may be the best player on her team but is she the best player she can be? Will all of her potential be realized in her current place?

IMO... Ideally you want your DD to be the 5th-8th best player on a team. In that range she's being challenged by competition in practice and pushed by her coach to improve. In that range though, she should still be getting plenty of burn on the field during games. The minutes that she doesn’t get should be used as a target to reach for.

You can't have it both ways though. You can't claim to be all about your DD's development if she's definitively the best player on her squad. If you’re really about developing her as a complete player then she needs to move up a level. She needs higher targets to aim for. There's always a bigger fish.

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