Seeding and QT weekends

Can someone please direct me and/or explain how the seeding for QT and how the two QT weekends work? I'm looking for the "simple" here's what you need to know (as in, QT for Dummies). Thanks!

Check the following thread from the 03's from last year.

https://www.txsoccer.net/t17217-03-lh-qt-schedule

Disclaimer #1:  Read on at your own risk.  I am not responsible if you start mumbling incoherently or your head explodes after reading this post in its entirety.

Disclaimer #2:  I am not associated with LHGCL in any way, nor do I have any direct knowledge of the inner workings of the seeding committee.  Information regarding seeding is based on public statements made by the seeding chairman at the QT manager's meeting and discussions I've had with several "knowledgeable" forum members over the past 4 years.

The QT format information is based directly on how the past 4 years of QT have been set-up, and assuming that LHGCL will follow the same format for the '04's.  LHGCL has historically posted the exact details of how the current year's QT will run on their website 1-2 weeks in advance of the start of the QT.


QT Seeding:

In the past, you would see Lake Highlands reps out watching games at the primary July tournaments, most notably King TUT and Puma Cup.  However, this year, if you believe what is posted on the NTSSA website about the new "North Texas Summer Seeding Showdown" tournament from 7/11-7/15, most of the decisions regarding seeding are going to come from this tournament.

"CCSAI Boys Classic League & Lake Highlands Girls Classic League:
We are lucky to have NTX partner with both the Boys and Girls Classic Leagues to hold a pre-season seeding tournament. This tournament is a must as it will be the primary source for all seedings in this
summer's qualifying tournaments."

Again, in the past, the seeding committee used their observations from these games, as a primary source for determining seedings.  Not sure if that logic still applies with the new tournament, or if the actual tournament results will play into the seeding process.  In the past, the seeding committee would also get the opinions of various people from the NTX soccer community that they know and respect (i.e. various DOC’s, or long-time coaches in NTX, etc.).  Again, not sure how much that will change with the new seeding tournament.

To my knowledge, any rankings and/or opinions posted the forum mean diddly-squat when it comes to QT seeding.  Also, to my knowledge, there is minimal consideration given to tournament/league results from prior to July 1st, as rosters can change significantly between the Spring and signing day.  

Don’t bother trying to predict the QT seeding.  Overall, it will be pretty good, but there are always some head scratchers and plenty of complaints.

QT Format:

Typically, somewhere between 40-50 teams apply and are accepted to participate in the LHGCL QT.  To give a general idea of how the QT will be set-up, I will show an example for a 48 team QT below:

48 teams would be split into twelve 4-Team Pools, using a standard serpentine method from the seeding as follows:



In general, the seeding committee will make minor adjustments to the seeding such that teams from the same club are not placed in the same pool for week 1 of the QT.  Each team will play the other 3 teams in its pool.  10 pt. scoring system used (6 pts. for a W, 3 pts. for a tie, 0 pts. for a loss, 1 pt. for each goal scored up to a max. of 3 in a single game, 1 pt for a shutout).

The 12 Pool winners from week #1 qualify for the 20 team U11 D1 “Supergroup” and are done playing.

The 4th place finishers with the X lowest point totals are eliminated from the QT after round 1.  X will usually be the number of teams required to reduce the # of remaining teams to 28.  In the case of a 48 team QT, X will be 8 teams (48 – 12 – 8 = 28).  

The remaining 28 teams will proceed to week 2 of the QT, and seven 4-team pools will be formed based on the results from week 1 play as follows (where “L2” = the week 1 Pool L 2nd place team, based on week 1 points scored).    The 4th place teams may get shifted between pools if needed to avoid any week 1 rematches in week 2.



Points do NOT carry over from week 1 to week 2.  In week 2, each team again plays the other 3 teams in their pool, using the same 10 point system.  The 7 week 2 pool winners qualify for the 20 team U11 D1 Supergroup.  In addition, in the 48 team scenario, the 2nd place team with the highest point total will also qualify for the 20 team D1 Supergroup.  The remaining 6 2nd place teams from week 2 + the 4 3rd place teams with the highest point total will qualify for U11 D3.  The remaining 3 3rd place teams, and all 4th place teams from week 2 are eliminated.

Now, the 48 team example I gave above is a general guide.  Based on the actual # of teams that apply and are accepted for the QT, the # of week 1 brackets and the placement of the seeds can vary.  

Example 2: The ’01 QT had 43 teams.  Week 1 was ten 4-team pools and one 3-team pool.  In that case, they did straight serpentine seeding with Pool A as the 3-team pool with seeds 1, 22, & 23.  All 3 teams from Pool A knew going in to week 1, that at worst case, they were going to make it to week #2.  11 week 1 pool winners qualified for D1 Supergroup.  5 4th place teams with lowest point totals were eliminated after week 1.  Seven 4-team pools in week 2.  7 Week 2 pool winners + 2 2nd place teams with highest point totals qualified for D1 Supergroup.  Remaining 5 2nd place teams + 5 3rd place teams with highest point totals qualified for D3.

Example #3:  The ’02 QT had 45 teams.  Week 1 was nine 4-team pools + three 3-team pools.  Top 24 seeds were done via regular serpentine method, but seed #25 was placed in Pool D instead of Pool A, and the serpentine progressed from there such that the bottom 3 seeds (#43, 44, 45) ended up in 3-Team Pools A, B, & C and were treated as #4 seeds (in other words, Pools A, B, & C didn’t have a #3 seed in them).  12 Week 1 Pool winners qualified for D1 Supergroup.  The 3 last placed teams from the 3-Team Pools + the 9 last placed teams from the 4-Team pools were evaluated on a points/per game basis, and the 5 teams with the lowest points/game totals were eliminated.  Remaining 28 teams place in seven 4-team pools in week 2.  7 Week 2 Pools winners + 2nd place team with highest week 2 point total qualified for D1 supergroup. Remaining 6 2nd place teams + 4 3rd place teams with highest point totals qualified for D3.

Example #4:  The ’03 QT had 52 teams.  Week 1 was 13 4-team pools, with standard serpentine method used to form the pools. 13 Week 1 Pool winners qualified for D1 Supergroup.  The 11 4th placed teams with the lowest point totals were eliminated.  Remaining 28 teams place in seven 4-team pools in week 2.  7 Week 2 Pool winners qualified for D1 supergroup. The 7 2nd place teams + 3 3rd place teams with highest point totals qualified for D3.


           

Hypothetically, say a top 15 team (from FBR), isn't able to compete in the "Seeding Tournament" or the King Tut tourney. How would you expect LH to handle that? Do they already have a pretty good idea about most of the top teams based on opinions from the NTX community? Obviously not every team that is playing in QT will play in the seeding tourney.

Let's be honest, NTX is not going to rank 130 teams from one tournament starting from scratch with no bias or prior idea as to where teams rank. If for example, a #20 ranked team plays #1, 5 and 10 and get spanked compared to a #75 team playing #90, 100 and 108 and kick butt, does that mean the #75 team gets a better seeding than #20?

It will be like every other year, a combo of info from DOCs, the FBR and the tournaments during July.

If anybody honestly thinks they'll rank 130 teams from one tournament, please explain how and show your working on a separate sheet of paper with your name printed clearly in the top right hand corner. So we can collectively laugh at you.

canaryman wrote:Hypothetically, say a top 15 team (from FBR), isn't able to compete in the "Seeding Tournament" or the King Tut tourney.  How would you expect LH to handle that?  Do they already have a pretty good idea about most of the top teams based on opinions from the NTX community?  Obviously not every team that is playing in QT will play in the seeding tourney.

I honestly don't know. The past 3 years, the process was pretty much the same... LHGCL sent seeding committee members to King TuT and Puma Cup, and if you didn't want to play in one of those tournaments, you could also set up a scrimmage/friendly on your own, call LHGCL and ask if they could send a seeding committee rep out to watch the game.

The way the message is worded on the NTSSA web site, makes it SOUND like more emphasis is going to be placed on the new "Seeding Showdown" tournament. Does that mean that LHGCL won't send seeding committee members to King TuT and Puma Cup now? Does that mean that LHGCL will not send a seeding committee member to come watch a scrimmage/friendly if requested? Does that mean LHGCL is going to place more emphasis on Seeding Showdown results, not just observation? I don't know.

My suggestion would be to have your coach and/or DOC contact LHGCL and get a direct response from them.

In the past, there have been a small # of "top" teams that skipped playing in King TuT or Puma Cup. IMO, teams that did that either saw no real impact to their seeding, OR ended up being seeded lower than expected. I do not recall a team that skipped the tune-up tournaments getting seeded higher than expected.

Now again, the wording from NTSSA would seem to imply that skipping the new Seeding Showdown tournament would have a negative impact on a team. Is that reality, or just a marketing ploy to try and strong-arm teams to play in the NTSSA sponsored tournament as opposed to an FC Dallas/Tx. Lightning/Cosmos sponsored tournament???

the7wolf wrote:Let's be honest, NTX is not going to rank 130 teams from one tournament starting from scratch with no bias or prior idea as to where teams rank. If for example, a #20 ranked team plays #1, 5 and 10 and get spanked compared to a #75 team playing #90, 100 and 108 and kick butt, does that mean the #75 team gets a better seeding than #20?

It will be like every other year, a combo of info from DOCs, the FBR and the tournaments during July.

If anybody honestly thinks they'll rank 130 teams from one tournament, please explain how and show your working on a separate sheet of paper with your name printed clearly in the top right hand corner. So we can collectively laugh at you.

  

bwgophers wrote:

canaryman wrote:Hypothetically, say a top 15 team (from FBR), isn't able to compete in the "Seeding Tournament" or the King Tut tourney.  How would you expect LH to handle that?  Do they already have a pretty good idea about most of the top teams based on opinions from the NTX community?  Obviously not every team that is playing in QT will play in the seeding tourney.

I honestly don't know.  The past 3 years, the process was pretty much the same...  LHGCL sent seeding committee members to King TuT and Puma Cup, and if you didn't want to play in one of those tournaments, you could also set up a scrimmage/friendly on your own, call LHGCL and ask if they could send a seeding committee rep out to watch the game.  

The way the message is worded on the NTSSA web site, makes it SOUND like more emphasis is going to be placed on the new "Seeding Showdown" tournament.  Does that mean that LHGCL won't send seeding committee members to King TuT and Puma Cup now?  Does that mean that LHGCL will not send a seeding committee member to come watch a scrimmage/friendly if requested?  Does that mean LHGCL is going to place more emphasis on Seeding Showdown results, not just observation?  I don't know.

My suggestion would be to have your coach and/or DOC contact LHGCL and get a direct response from them.

In the past, there have been a small # of "top" teams that skipped playing in King TuT or Puma Cup.  IMO, teams that did that either saw no real impact to their seeding, OR ended up being seeded lower than expected.  I do not recall a team that skipped the tune-up tournaments getting seeded higher than expected.

Now again, the wording from NTSSA would seem to imply that skipping the new Seeding Showdown tournament would have a negative impact on a team.  Is that reality, or just a marketing ploy to try and strong-arm teams to play in the NTSSA sponsored tournament as opposed to an FC Dallas/Tx. Lightning/Cosmos sponsored tournament???

I contacted them a few weeks back after they released the new NTX Seeding Tournament information to ask if they were going to place any extra emphasis on any given tournament and all he (Duncan Hoffman) said was they would have representation at all seeding tournaments.  I asked if any of them would be more important than the next and he did not emphasize any of them being more important than the next.  So it is my assumption, this first year it may not be as important, however, it may be more important next year.