Re: The Quiet Encouragement of Violence

by Lefty 08/10/14, 10:14 am

thebox wrote:Violence is a strong term that I would not use in 13-14 year old girl soccer. Rough or Physical play sounds more appropriate. Every Ref calls their game where they try to maintain control when things get a bit "chippy." Refs are supposed to guide the game, not be the determining factor in changing the game.

Where would a punch to the head of a player on the ground fall in your terminology?

by thebox 08/10/14, 10:21 am

Easily a RED CARD but it has to be seen by one of the three refs. Thats the problem is many fouls or acts of aggression are not seen. There are 22 girls on that field and many mean acts of aggression are made off the ball, not when they have the ball. I agree with you, some girls will play mean but every contact sport has those players to deal with. I can't tell you how many times other players stand up for their teammates and return the act too (off the ball) in retaliation. Those aren't always see either but its still part of the game, like it or not.

by Lefty 08/10/14, 10:24 am

thebox wrote:Name 1 '01 ECNL Team that cannot turn on physical play when they decide to. They all have those players and they all have the ability to. Its not what is taught from a skills level where it frequently appears mid way through the second half when one team is down and needs to make something turn around. Maybe skills and movement off the ball weren't cutting it and now its time to force things through physical play. The game changes and the refs have to keep that under control but they are tired too and it sometimes turns into a cluster of bad decisions from players and refs. If two girls run directly at each other to hit straight up at the same level, the larger girl usually has the advantage. If a kick is coming in from above, the larger or taller girl probably has the advantage when they both go up and clank heads getting to it. Its just physics and smaller players have to learn when to put themselves in a position of risk and when not to. Its about soccer maturity and smarts, where the smaller players can beat the larger players with other speed and quickness skillets. Thats whats great about this game. Its not a knife fight but it does get physical sometimes and all the better teams/players know when that happens and how to adjust or be beaten by it. The thing parents don't like about physical play is its not truly the way the game was drawn up to be played. High elbows, pushing off the ball, giving a foul intentionally at mid field, high kicks....these are not taught and not considered skills but they are part of the game. Go play volleyball if you can't deal with the risks. Girls soccer is a CONTACT SPORT

So we should assume that you would be fine with a smaller, quicker defender consistently slide tackling a larger, faster forward to the ground throughout a game? Some being legal challenges, and some being not quite so legal challenges?

by thebox 08/10/14, 10:34 am

If they make contact with the ball and it was not from behind then its usually clean. If its from behind or no ball contact is made, taking the player out? Its a foul. Did it deserve a yellow card or possibly a red? Thats where the ref has to determine the intent of the tackler and the approach they used. Were they tackling to the ball or directly to the players feet. This is where the ref's opinions/rulings can vary greatly. Its all about their training, vision and recall. Some are better than others but still their subjective opinion will not please all the viewers of the game. Its still part of the game.

by Lefty 08/10/14, 10:46 am

thebox wrote:If they make contact with the ball and it was not from behind then its usually clean. If its from behind or no ball contact is made, taking the player out? Its a foul. Did it deserve a yellow card or possibly a red? Thats where the ref has to determine the intent of the tackler and the approach they used. Were they tackling to the ball or directly to the players feet. This is where the ref's opinions/rulings can vary greatly. Its all about their training, vision and recall. Some are better than others but still their subjective opinion will not please all the viewers of the game. Its still part of the game.

Great. I agree with you 100% on this one.

What is interesting is to listen to the howling of many parents and the calling for a red card on any slide tackle.

A couple of totally clean slides can have a significant impact on a game. I recall watching a smaller quicker team from VA, totally frustrate and take apart one of our NTX power teams in regionals a few years ago.

by haterinho 08/10/14, 11:00 am

thebox wrote:If they make contact with the ball and it was not from behind then its usually clean. If its from behind or no ball contact is made, taking the player out? Its a foul. Did it deserve a yellow card or possibly a red? Thats where the ref has to determine the intent of the tackler and the approach they used. Were they tackling to the ball or directly to the players feet. This is where the ref's opinions/rulings can vary greatly. Its all about their training, vision and recall. Some are better than others but still their subjective opinion will not please all the viewers of the game. Its still part of the game.

Spot on! Love the balanced perspective you're contributing to this thread...

Also good to see ballhead in here adding some wisdom.

by thebox 08/10/14, 11:15 am

Tougher than side tackling has to be calls involving the keeper. Those can be very tough to see, game changing and very subjective calls involving the protection of the players. A ref cannot allow a keeper to continue to get mauled after they make a close save or contact with the opposing forward. Those are the calls and hits that can be unforgiving.

by travelin light 08/10/14, 11:22 am

This is interesting reading...but raises my curiosity for those of you with older girls. What is the effect that team captains have on the game? Do they communicate with the refs? Have you seen captains call out their own players after a poor tackle? Do many teams not even use team captains?

by weatherbug 08/10/14, 11:33 am

haterinho wrote:
thebox wrote:Violence is a strong term that I would not use in 13-14 year old girl soccer. Rough or Physical play sounds more appropriate. Every Ref calls their game where they try to maintain control when things get a bit "chippy." Refs are supposed to guide the game, not be the determining factor in changing the game.

I agree with this. With everything in the news regarding domestic violence in pro sports, it feels out of place the way the word is being so loosely thrown around in this thread. Your kid getting knocked off the ball and the ref didn't call what u thought was a foul does not equate to violence. Neither does every injury resulting from contact between two players.

I doubt parents really want to see reds tossed out every week...the chorus of complaints about overzealous refs would soon follow. All we need to know is whether the game is becoming more physical and causing more injuries. In the games I've seen this fall, the officiating is slightly better and the level of physicality is slightly less than years past.

Violent may not be the correct word, but I think most parents would prefer games to be called tightly to prevent reckless play that results in injuries. It seems like there is support too for the league to track injuries to see which refs are allowing games to get out of hand or which teams are consistently present when injuries are occurring.

Our team has had 3 fractures and one concussion during games against the same league opponent accumulated in our last 5 meetings in league matches. That's not coincidental at that point.

by haterinho 08/10/14, 12:02 pm

thebox wrote:Tougher than side tackling has to be calls involving the keeper. Those can be very tough to see, game changing and very subjective calls involving the protection of the players. A ref cannot allow a keeper to continue to get mauled after they make a close save or contact with the opposing forward. Those are the calls and hits that can be unforgiving.

Yes, but as you mentioned, players learn how to adjust and deal with it.

Great example was DDs team played socal blues ECNL in August at surf cup. Tangent rant here...have no idea how topdrawer has this team ranked #5 in the nation, as I've never seen more blatant kick ball from any team since u11. Wouldn't put this team top 5 in NTX let alone 5th in the nation. I'm hoping their coach had scouted our team and knew we had a smaller keeper, and they don't normally play this way, but their entire approach was put several big'uns up top, blast a long ball in from anywhere on the field, and have the big girls crash the keeper.

Keep was knocked around several times with no call until a high ball came in...she goes up snatches it out of the air, and lays out the biggest of the fwds who had come in once again trying to knock the keeper around. Perfectly clean...keeper had the ball, and the contact was initiated by the fwd. Fwd stayed down a few moments, went off, and later came back in, but it was quite clear she and the rest of the Blues fwds abandoned that approach the rest of the game.

Would I have preferred ref to call the fouls in the first place? Absolutely, but you play home town team with home town refs you can't expect fairness...if you get it - great, but don't expect it. Keeper sent the message what would be tolerated where the ref would not.

It's a contact sport for all of them, and like you said, the dd's adjust to how the game is being called. Refs that have a track record of injured players, and teams that have a track record of injuring others should be addressed, but how do you know unless you record the data.

by thebox 08/10/14, 12:31 pm

Agree totally

by Guest 08/10/14, 01:47 pm

haterinho wrote: but how do you know unless you record the data.

...but if you put a system in place to record the data, you can no longer claim plausible deniability... Suspect

...same thing goes for everyone else's favorite rant - CPP. LHGCL should certainly have the data on what % of CPP's are playing "down" vs. playing "up", and that should give some insight as to whether the "spirit of the rule" is truly being followed, or if modifications to CPP are warranted... but that's the logical, data-driven, enginerd in me talking... Suspect

by wilatnus 08/10/14, 06:00 pm

I have a different perspective on this. We had to move to MI this summer and have been enjoying the soccer up here. In first pre-season tourney I saw multiple yellows shown and a penalty kick awarded. In my DD's years in Dallas I only saw 1 yellow card. The refs allow good shoulder to shoulder challenges in MI but none of the pushing, shoving or tripping you get used to in NTX is tolerated. Refs can totally control this if they want to. Parents are also unbelievably calmer too but that is for a different thread ....

by Coach&Ref 08/10/14, 07:19 pm

thebox wrote:If they make contact with the ball and it was not from behind then its usually clean. If its from behind or no ball contact is made, taking the player out? Its a foul. Did it deserve a yellow card or possibly a red? Thats where the ref has to determine the intent of the tackler and the approach they used. Were they tackling to the ball or directly to the players feet. This is where the ref's opinions/rulings can vary greatly. Its all about their training, vision and recall. Some are better than others but still their subjective opinion will not please all the viewers of the game. Its still part of the game.

Some good points in here, but let me just give you a perspective that you won't find in the LOTG other than the obvious manner of the foul.

Sometimes in the "Advice to Referees" book, you can find some clarifications to some laws, but a lot of what I have learned comes from trying to leech information from Grade 6-4 on any games I can be lucky enough to beg and plead my way onto! Laughing

As far as the first point goes, I was taught to picture a slide tackle like a clock. The more you get past 3 until past 9 gets increasingly likely that there will be a foul. BUT, there CAN be a clean tackle at 6 (directly from behind) that might not be determined (in the opinion of the referee) to be a foul.

To the second point. Refs are not mind readers. I have addressed this point in the general discussion section. There is more to what I said, but it will give you some direction.

The last section is the key. There can be fouls that would not normally be called or advantage played, but are considered "Tactical" in nature and usually always warrants a card. An example might be a shirt pull to stop a counterattack. It's more common with older age groups.

You have good points overall, but I am trying to add a bit more perspective on some of your points. Very Happy

by Pinnochio 08/10/14, 11:00 pm

wilatnus wrote:I have a different perspective on this. We had to move to MI this summer and have been enjoying the soccer up here. In first pre-season tourney I saw multiple yellows shown and a penalty kick awarded. In my DD's years in Dallas I only saw 1 yellow card. The refs allow good shoulder to shoulder challenges in MI but none of the pushing, shoving or tripping you get used to in NTX is tolerated. Refs can totally control this if they want to. Parents are also unbelievably calmer too but that is for a different thread ....

I agree completely. NTX refs should hand out a minimum of 3 yellow cards per game. It would go a long way to cleaning up the game and protecting the girls from dangerous pushing, tackling, coming over the back or plain dirty play.

Double that number of cards when the Kicks are involved.

by Big Poppy 08/10/14, 11:43 pm

Pinnochio wrote:
wilatnus wrote:I have a different perspective on this. We had to move to MI this summer and have been enjoying the soccer up here. In first pre-season tourney I saw multiple yellows shown and a penalty kick awarded. In my DD's years in Dallas I only saw 1 yellow card. The refs allow good shoulder to shoulder challenges in MI but none of the pushing, shoving or tripping you get used to in NTX is tolerated. Refs can totally control this if they want to. Parents are also unbelievably calmer too but that is for a different thread ....

I agree completely. NTX refs should hand out a minimum of 3 yellow cards per game. It would go a long way to cleaning up the game and protecting the girls from dangerous pushing, tackling, coming over the back or plain dirty play.

Double that number of cards when the Kicks are involved.

If the refs start calling the fouls for what they are.....the level, severity and amount of the fouls should begin to drop. I firmly believe there will always be fouls in a game....however, anytime a team has 15+ fouls in a game...that's just too much and the refs have lost complete control of that game. Even if they are minor fouls, there still should be Yellow/Red cards for players that have multiple fouls.

If a physical player continues to get away with fouls from behind, running through a player...etc., etc....how do you ever expect that player to change that behavior? Two to three overly physical players on a team can change the entire course of a game...especially if the fouls are not being called. Not to mention...when a foul is not called...normally the ball ends up with the other team. Thus...you didn't get foul called and your team just lost the ball (double whammy).

by Lefty 09/10/14, 07:45 am

wilatnus wrote:I have a different perspective on this. We had to move to MI this summer and have been enjoying the soccer up here. In first pre-season tourney I saw multiple yellows shown and a penalty kick awarded. In my DD's years in Dallas I only saw 1 yellow card. The refs allow good shoulder to shoulder challenges in MI but none of the pushing, shoving or tripping you get used to in NTX is tolerated. Refs can totally control this if they want to. Parents are also unbelievably calmer too but that is for a different thread ....

Interesting perspective. If the Michigan teams and style of play does not emphasize the outside of the LOTG physical aspects like NTX, what do they emphasize in their development?

What is their style of play or calling card?

by haterinho 09/10/14, 09:20 am

Lefty wrote:
wilatnus wrote:I have a different perspective on this. We had to move to MI this summer and have been enjoying the soccer up here. In first pre-season tourney I saw multiple yellows shown and a penalty kick awarded. In my DD's years in Dallas I only saw 1 yellow card. The refs allow good shoulder to shoulder challenges in MI but none of the pushing, shoving or tripping you get used to in NTX is tolerated. Refs can totally control this if they want to. Parents are also unbelievably calmer too but that is for a different thread ....

Interesting perspective. If the Michigan teams and style of play does not emphasize the outside of the LOTG physical aspects like NTX, what do they emphasize in their development?

What is their style of play or calling card?

I would question whether Wilatnus is comparing apples to apples. Top Michigan teams that compete on the same level with NTX are just as physical as anyone around here...same with east coast, same with west coast. Michigan Hawks are incredibly skillful but you best believe their center backs don't mess around.

by thebox 09/10/14, 10:27 am

I would question whether Wilatnus is comparing apples to apples. Top Michigan teams that compete on the same level with NTX are just as physical as anyone around here...same with east coast, same with west coast. Michigan Hawks are incredibly skillful but you best believe their center backs don't mess around. [/quote]

Must be talking different levels of Soccer here. Most ECNL teams all get pretty physical with their skills and moves as thats just how they are wired, trained and play from whistle to whistle. This is why not every player, nor every parent, are a good fit. I think Dallas is more used to this level of play, outside of ECNL because they have such strong leagues, coaches and numbers. Dallas has one of the deepest girls youth soccer reservoirs in the country and thats why you will always see those teams in the mix and discussions at the highest levels. Its not snobbery, its just a fact.

by ballhead 09/10/14, 10:37 am

haterinho wrote:
Lefty wrote:
wilatnus wrote:I have a different perspective on this. We had to move to MI this summer and have been enjoying the soccer up here. In first pre-season tourney I saw multiple yellows shown and a penalty kick awarded. In my DD's years in Dallas I only saw 1 yellow card. The refs allow good shoulder to shoulder challenges in MI but none of the pushing, shoving or tripping you get used to in NTX is tolerated. Refs can totally control this if they want to. Parents are also unbelievably calmer too but that is for a different thread ....

Interesting perspective. If the Michigan teams and style of play does not emphasize the outside of the LOTG physical aspects like NTX, what do they emphasize in their development?

What is their style of play or calling card?

I would question whether Wilatnus is comparing apples to apples. Top Michigan teams that compete on the same level with NTX are just as physical as anyone around here...same with east coast, same with west coast. Michigan Hawks are incredibly skillful but you best believe their center backs don't mess around.

In the years my dd's team played Michigan Hawks in ECNL, they were very, very good, always ranked near the top nationally. They were also very, very physical. Not dirty, in my estimation, but it was as physical a contest as any I've ever seen.

by Lefty 09/10/14, 11:12 am

Dallas has one of the deepest girls youth soccer reservoirs in the country and thats why you will always see those teams in the mix and discussions at the highest levels. Its not snobbery, its just a fact.

#'s of girls playing yes, volume of high end players developed?

Once you get beyond red and blue in NTX how many clubs consistently place girls in high end D1 college programs?

Might be interesting to hear from some who have been through the recruiting process, and talked to schools across the country, on the general view of NTX players by schools outside of the southwest, once you get beyond the top 2-4 players each year.

by Its Me 09/10/14, 11:40 am

Coach&Ref wrote:
thebox wrote:If they make contact with the ball and it was not from behind then its usually clean. If its from behind or no ball contact is made, taking the player out? Its a foul. Did it deserve a yellow card or possibly a red? Thats where the ref has to determine the intent of the tackler and the approach they used. Were they tackling to the ball or directly to the players feet. This is where the ref's opinions/rulings can vary greatly. Its all about their training, vision and recall. Some are better than others but still their subjective opinion will not please all the viewers of the game. Its still part of the game.

Some good points in here, but let me just give you a perspective that you won't find in the LOTG other than the obvious manner of the foul.

Sometimes in the "Advice to Referees" book, you can find some clarifications to some laws, but a lot of what I have learned comes from trying to leech information from Grade 6-4 on any games I can be lucky enough to beg and plead my way onto!

As far as the first point goes, I was taught to picture a slide tackle like a clock. The more you get past 3 until past 9 gets increasingly likely that there will be a foul. BUT, there CAN be a clean tackle at 6 (directly from behind) that might not be determined (in the opinion of the referee) to be a foul.

To the second point. Refs are not mind readers. I have addressed this point in the general discussion section. There is more to what I said, but it will give you some direction.

The last section is the key. There can be fouls that would not normally be called or advantage played, but are considered "Tactical" in nature and usually always warrants a card. An example might be a shirt pull to stop a counterattack. It's more common with older age groups.

You have good points overall, but I am trying to add a bit more perspective on some of your points.

One key factors that I always consider is "Does the game needs a card?"

If you're able to talk to the kids and it's not a flagrant foul then I'm fine with just talking and getting acknowledgement from the player that they understand. Rather than me talking and they just turn and walk off. If you see persistent fouls then you may need to stop talking and issue a couple of cards to get the players attention. Although some may not agree with this last statement but I've gone up to both coaches after the game is over and explained that I was not going to place the cards (yellow) on the game sheet because the cards were issued to keep my game under control. Normally they both say thanks and are in total agreement.

by soccersounder 09/10/14, 12:58 pm

Lefty wrote:

Dallas has one of the deepest girls youth soccer reservoirs in the country and thats why you will always see those teams in the mix and discussions at the highest levels. Its not snobbery, its just a fact.

#'s of girls playing yes, volume of high end players developed?

Once you get beyond red and blue in NTX how many clubs consistently place girls in high end D1 college programs?

Might be interesting to hear from some who have been through the recruiting process, and talked to schools across the country, on the general view of NTX players by schools outside of the southwest, once you get beyond the top 2-4 players each year.

Many schools: North Texas, Arkansas, OKie State, Texas Tech UTEP, Baylor, Louisiana Tech, TCU, Mizzou and others primarily recruit DFW. That says a lot.

Two D1 College Coaches told me that EVERY SINGLE girl on the 5 ECNL teams in DFW can get help to play D1 College if they want to... I can link the site if you like, but Texas is always a top two state in Womens College Soccer Recruiting and DFW is always the top 1 or 2 city areas in the Country...

by wilatnus 10/10/14, 12:21 am

ballhead wrote:
haterinho wrote:
Lefty wrote:
wilatnus wrote:I have a different perspective on this. We had to move to MI this summer and have been enjoying the soccer up here. In first pre-season tourney I saw multiple yellows shown and a penalty kick awarded. In my DD's years in Dallas I only saw 1 yellow card. The refs allow good shoulder to shoulder challenges in MI but none of the pushing, shoving or tripping you get used to in NTX is tolerated. Refs can totally control this if they want to. Parents are also unbelievably calmer too but that is for a different thread ....

Interesting perspective. If the Michigan teams and style of play does not emphasize the outside of the LOTG physical aspects like NTX, what do they emphasize in their development?

What is their style of play or calling card?

I would question whether Wilatnus is comparing apples to apples. Top Michigan teams that compete on the same level with NTX are just as physical as anyone around here...same with east coast, same with west coast. Michigan Hawks are incredibly skillful but you best believe their center backs don't mess around.

In the years my dd's team played Michigan Hawks in ECNL, they were very, very good, always ranked near the top nationally. They were also very, very physical. Not dirty, in my estimation, but it was as physical a contest as any I've ever seen.

I can't comment on ECNL yet as my DD is u13 this year. My DD's team is in the same division as the Hawks though. I didn't mean to say there is no physical play here. There are plenty of hard, legal shoulder to shoulder challenges and slide tackles in the league. What I don't see is blatant shoving, pushing, pulling, etc. because the refs do call & card these without fail. This forces the physicality to be legal. I had my DD shoved from behind in the box on a breakaway in NTX & no card / penalty. That would never happen here. Maybe once you get into ECNL, teams do what they have to do, but for now a lack of the wanton physicality, legal or not, I saw in NTX.

To the other question posed, I'd say the calling card here is just good technical soccer. I notice teams build the attack out of the back and play lots of quick combinations. There are certainly less numbers playing club soccer here. Because of that, I think the quality is higher and you don't see the dilution of talent you get in NTX. You also end up traveling all over the state to play teams vs. just playing in the Dallas area (again nowhere near the volume of people). You can't argue with the hawks success though; consistently produce great teams despite the lack of volume you have in NTX. I know others have discussed on the forum before, but consolidation of ECNL teams in NTX would produce a stronger national presence IMHO.

by allhatnocattle 10/10/14, 07:31 am

justpeachy wrote:Overheard in the parking lot that a TX Lightning player my have taken out a Sting Angell player resulting in broken clavicle. That should not happen!

What should happen when an injury becomes more than just a 2-week recovery period? How many weeks does a player have to be out for the league to take some action? The referee didn't cause the injury although his reluctance to establish a standard of right and wrong created an environment where one player's frustration manifested itself in a pre-meditated hit on a defenseless player.

Contact sport, yes. I'm sure there are numerous other injuries throughout the league. This was a senseless one.

by Hooligan 10/10/14, 08:31 am

It's pretty simple actually....if you are approaching a known speed trap, you slow down a little don't you?

If you expect the enforcement to be at a higher degree, you adjust your behavior accordingly. Simple as that.

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