The Quiet Encouragement of Violence

It's pretty simple actually....if you are approaching a known speed trap, you slow down a little don't you?

If you expect the enforcement to be at a higher degree, you adjust your behavior accordingly. Simple as that.

allhatnocattle wrote:

justpeachy wrote:Overheard in the parking lot that a TX Lightning player my have taken out a Sting Angell player resulting in broken clavicle.   That should not happen!

What should happen when an injury becomes more than just a 2-week recovery period?  How many weeks does a player have to be out for the league to take some action?  The referee didn't cause the injury although his reluctance to establish a standard of right and wrong created an environment where one player's frustration manifested itself in a pre-meditated hit on a defenseless player.

Contact sport, yes.  I'm sure there are numerous other injuries throughout the league.  This was a senseless one.

Violence...premeditated...defenseless...I get your frustration over the injury, but this criminalizing rhetoric is a bit much. Kids get hurt playing a tough sport with other kids. Some get hurt so bad it ends their youth playing career. We all know or have heard of kids that were concussed multiple times and had to quit the sport, but the idea the league should be punishing individual players based on the severity of an opponent's injury is a slippery slope...check that...it's ridiculous. That's not what you're suggesting is it?

Let's say your kid pulls off a slide tackle and my daughter tears up her ACL trying unsuccessfully to avoid and change direction. I should petition LH to suspend your daughter for the same length of time my daughter is out?

Slide tackles are legal and quite beautiful when executed correctly. If it's done at the correct angle and the ball is dispossessed, then any injury is just bad luck. I'd hope my DD would be distraught over your DD's injury though.

Intent is the key word here and focusing on my rhetoric as criminalizing doesn't really address the opportunity.

I'm suggesting that, when one team is responsible for causing more than it's share of injuries, action should be taken. Suspensions, point deductions, etc. should be on the table. The injury's severity shouldn't dictate the discipline, but the pattern of it should.

allhatnocattle wrote:Slide tackles are legal and quite beautiful when executed correctly.  If it's done at the correct angle and the ball is dispossessed, then any injury is just bad luck.  I'd hope my DD would be distraught over your DD's injury though.

Intent is the key word here and focusing on my rhetoric as criminalizing doesn't really address the opportunity.  

I'm suggesting that, when one team is responsible for causing more than it's share of injuries, action should be taken.  Suspensions, point deductions, etc. should be on the table.  The injury's severity shouldn't dictate the discipline, but the pattern of it should.

Agreed with all of this 100%...except the rhetoric. I think word choices matter. Violent conduct is in the LOTG...if it happens, should be straight red every single time and the suspensions that follow mean the process works. The injury rates could help to show if the process is broken.

I've read every post on this particular string and there have been some very good perspectives and commentary.  Furthermore....it's apparent that most/if not everyone is really looking to the refs to protect the players and the game.  I agree with allhat....a perfectly executed slide tackle can be as impressive as a bender in the corner or a header on goal.  

IMO - it's the fouls from behind, shirt pulling/grabbing and intentional fouls that need to be addressed.   Basically...any foul when the receiving player is not expecting the foul or has no way of preparing for the foul.  

As I said in an earlier post.....anytime a team has 15+ fouls in a game, the REF has lost complete control and the fouling will continue to escalate as the game goes on......7-8 fouls in the first half can/will go to 10-12 fouls in the second half.  If I am the coach and my team is winning the physical battle and the score is close….why wouldn’t I encourage my players to keep up their intensity.  

Summary:  7.5 fouls per half =  a foul about every 5 minutes.  
                 11 fouls 2nd half = a foul about every 3 minutes (for some teams, this is a strategy….not a accident).

Just say’in!

allhatnocattle wrote:Slide tackles are legal and quite beautiful when executed correctly.  If it's done at the correct angle and the ball is dispossessed, then any injury is just bad luck.  I'd hope my DD would be distraught over your DD's injury though.

Intent is the key word here and focusing on my rhetoric as criminalizing doesn't really address the opportunity.  

I'm suggesting that, when one team is responsible for causing more than it's share of injuries, action should be taken.  Suspensions, point deductions, etc. should be on the table.  The injury's severity shouldn't dictate the discipline, but the pattern of it should.

Totally Agree.  These teams compensate for lack of skill with the violence.  Its one thing to play tough, its another to play nasty. My DD's coach not only frowns upon the activity but sees it as a lack of understanding of the game and his "system".  Girls that resort to frustrated fouls get removed from the game (and brow beaten when on the bench for not playing up to their potential).  

The behavior comes from the parents, its condoned by the coach(s), and its allowed by the refs.  Its a trifecta of injury and should be expelled from the game.

Big Poppy wrote:I've read every post on this particular string and there have been some very good perspectives and commentary.  Furthermore....it's apparent that most/if not everyone is really looking to the refs to protect the players and the game.  I agree with allhat....a perfectly executed slide tackle can be as impressive as a bender in the corner or a header on goal.  

IMO - it's the fouls from behind, shirt pulling/grabbing and intentional fouls that need to be addressed.   Basically...any foul when the receiving player is not expecting the foul or has no way of preparing for the foul.  

As I said in an earlier post.....anytime a team has 15+ fouls in a game, the REF has lost complete control and the fouling will continue to escalate as the game goes on......7-8 fouls in the first half can/will go to 10-12 fouls in the second half.  If I am the coach and my team is winning the physical battle and the score is close….why wouldn’t I encourage my players to keep up their intensity.  

Summary:  7.5 fouls per half =  a foul about every 5 minutes.  
                 11 fouls 2nd half = a foul about every 3 minutes (for some teams, this is a strategy….not a accident).

Just say’in!

You are going two directions here...

One you say that 15 fouls in a game means that the Ref has "completely" loss control? Then you say that some teams may plan to foul every 3 minutes? That would have nothing to do with the Ref losing control and everything to do with the Coach. In fact, I'm sure EVERYONE in here would hope that the Ref would call them all. In your example, the Ref would be in COMPLETE control of the game.

soccersounder wrote:

Big Poppy wrote:I've read every post on this particular string and there have been some very good perspectives and commentary.  Furthermore....it's apparent that most/if not everyone is really looking to the refs to protect the players and the game.  I agree with allhat....a perfectly executed slide tackle can be as impressive as a bender in the corner or a header on goal.  

IMO - it's the fouls from behind, shirt pulling/grabbing and intentional fouls that need to be addressed.   Basically...any foul when the receiving player is not expecting the foul or has no way of preparing for the foul.  

As I said in an earlier post.....anytime a team has 15+ fouls in a game, the REF has lost complete control and the fouling will continue to escalate as the game goes on......7-8 fouls in the first half can/will go to 10-12 fouls in the second half.  If I am the coach and my team is winning the physical battle and the score is close….why wouldn’t I encourage my players to keep up their intensity.  

Summary:  7.5 fouls per half =  a foul about every 5 minutes.  
                 11 fouls 2nd half = a foul about every 3 minutes (for some teams, this is a strategy….not a accident).

Just say’in!

You are going two directions here...

One you say that 15 fouls in a game means that the Ref has "completely" loss control? Then you say that some teams may plan to foul every 3 minutes? That would have nothing to do with the Ref losing control and everything to do with the Coach. In fact, I'm sure EVERYONE in here would hope that the Ref would call them all. In your example, the Ref would be in COMPLETE control of the game.

Sounder....I agree with your feedback and point taken!

I probably should have mentioned that no "Cards" are given out in these games....just the calling of multiple fouls...one after the other.  That is what I meant by "lost complete control of the game."

unfortunately, its not very quiet, i was  at an academy game once where a parent on our own team was encouraging his daughter to "take her out". i looked at him with a WTF look and he slinked away..take out an 8 yr old?

Heard it many, many times. Heard it this season from a Coach in LH U13, heard it Wednesday at a U15 game. Amazes me every time.

Have y'all noticed that, as a generalization, both parents and players seem to mirror the coach's personality? It seems like the craziness of the coach attracts the same types of parents/players.

If your kid is to slow to legally defend then yes the only course of action is illegality. So called "nasty" play is tolerated at this age. How do you beat physicality? With skill.

We are moving to Washington state so I've been watching their soccer forum.  They are having this same conversation and I liked this coach's reply:

It's not just HS teams. There are a decent number of club teams out there that try to compete by being "physical". That can range the gamut from teaching a pressing style of play to clutching and grabbing to persistently fouling to stop the opposition to downright dirty play in an attempt to injure or intimidate the opposition.

The majority of refs are either not capable or unwilling to deal with it. The 2 most ineffectual methods I've seen are "let them play" and the "I'm going to give you 3 warnings but never pull out a card" techniques.

My opinion is refs have 2 cards. One is a warning, the 2nd is an ejection. Use them.

Personally I will never get on a ref if they miss calls like handball or offside or if they call an occasional shoulder to shoulder play a foul. About the only times I will comment from the sideline is if I see persistent dangerous play from a player or team that has potential to cause injury and the ref is incapable of recognizing such or unwilling to do something about it. Then the ref will hear from me, very loudly and clearly. If it results in a sideline discussion between me and a ref, so be it. I do not tell my players to retaliate, I expect the ref to control the opposing team but in one instance I did pull a team from the field when I felt that the game had gotten out of control and the ref was incapable of controlling players, which made it impossible to control the sidelines.

IMO one of the dirtiest plays and unfortunately one frequently taught is the continuation foul. The one where a player consciously follows through after the ball has been played away from the scene and takes out the player that just played the ball. Most refs don't catch it because they follow the ball, most AR's do not have the confidence to call it because in their mind the play has moved on and it causes a lot of injuries because the player that just played the ball is either in a follow through stance or has relaxed because the play has moved on. I've seen entire skilled teams taken apart by less skilled opponents using this method of persistent fouling after the play. I've seen a lot of players come off the field injured due to this. If you've played the game it's easy to spot teams that have been taught this physical style of play and believe me, it's taught. There's a big difference between a 50-50 ball and a 60-40 ball and I can tell you that the combination of a 60-40 ball and a team taught to play physical results in a foul 80% of the time but a call only 10% of the time.

Last paragraph is a great description of the NTX style.  

I know we have several on my DD's current team.

Often described, or attributed to just being clumsy or klutzy at the younger ages.

Sounds like Lefty's kid needs to find a new team.

Soccer Madman wrote:Sounds like Lefty's kid needs to find a new team.

Why? Most every team in NTX needs to have some enforcers/bangers, just like hockey, given the way the games are called here.

I would be just fine if they were carded out of games on a regular basis along with the ones on the other team.

A few years ago I was talking with a coach within my daughter's own club about her. He told me she is a very skilled player but needed to toughen up. He said if he was playing against us he'd just have his biggest player (who happened to be the biggest in the whole age group) throw a couple of well placed hits at her and it would totally take my daughter out of her game. It's a strategy for sure. Thankfully my daughter has gotten stronger on the ball as she's grown but it would be nice if soccer could just be the "beautiful game" without the thuggery.

weatherbug wrote:

IMO one of the dirtiest plays and unfortunately one frequently taught is the continuation foul. The one where a player consciously follows through after the ball has been played away ....[/i]

Recently played an 06 team (yes, 06!!!) who had a kid that did this consistently throughout the match. Never once called/seen by the referee or AR. We've played with this coach so I know he is not teaching this, but I've also witnessed this parent at training, indoor and outdoor games. He wants so badly for his kid to be better than she is that he is incessantly on her to "get the ball" "be aggressive" "don't let her beat you" "push her back"....well, you get the picture. Reality is the kid is a step slower than the level she is playing, so what do we get? In an effort to please daddy, we get the creation of a dirty player whose transgressions will only get more dangerous as she gets bigger and stronger. And, while not teaching it, the coach must have seen it by now and leaving her in the game and not controlling this moron on the sideline makes him complicit as well.

So, while I agree with the coach that we have too many referees unwilling or incapable of protecting the kids (never mind the integrity of the game - an entirely different subject), the parents and coaches have a huge role in this problem as well.

Fouling off the ball or after the play is mean/dirty, get in their head or make them feel intimidated play, and should be carded every time. Its like targeting in football or late hits where its a foul. Those players can pull up or change direction. Recruiting for physics is what happens when these teams get older and setup to compete not only locally, but nationally. Size and speed help win games. Air balls coming into the mid field, shoulder to shoulder from the outside towards the goal, Goalies reaching the bar and with wide reach, defenders staying in front blocking view and shot of forwards cleanly or aggressively. Its a well known fact and football parents feel the same pain. Yes, you see some amazing smaller athletes prove that mainstream athletics opinion wrong. We see it all the time with receivers too small but with good hands and speed. Soccer proves it wrong especially but the ones that bust through, usually have remained healthy. Nobody wants to send smaller kids out to a field where they give up 50 lbs to get hammered and hurt. Its a tough decision for coaches because it makes them rely on the ref and their ability to call a tight play game. That does not always happen and so the risk is there for unnecessary injury. Thats why boxing and MMA have weight classes. Just another opinion on the matter.

Having been in this game for a long time and seen my child blindsided way too many times, I have to ask...At what point is it no longer par for the course? When do we label this what it truly is - assault. If the refs will not take control of the game, then who should - the police?
All Hat nailed it - the coaches have to own this problem, backed up by the parents. If my kid took someone out the way I have seen so many times, she'd never talk on her phone again!! That CANNOT be acceptable to anyone in authority whether it be referee, coach, or parent.

"When do we label this what it truly is - assault. If the refs will not take control of the game, then who should - the police?"


Lighten up, Francis.......

Gunner9 wrote:

weatherbug wrote:

IMO one of the dirtiest plays and unfortunately one frequently taught is the continuation foul. The one where a player consciously follows through after the ball has been played away ....[/i]

Recently played an 06 team (yes, 06!!!) who had a kid that did this consistently throughout the match.  Never once called/seen by the referee or AR.  We've played with this coach so I know he is not teaching this, but I've also witnessed this parent at training, indoor and outdoor games.  He wants so badly for his kid to be better than she is that he is incessantly on her to "get the ball" "be aggressive" "don't let her beat you" "push her back"....well, you get the picture.   Reality is the kid is a step slower than the level she is playing, so what do we get?  In an effort to please daddy, we get the creation of a dirty player whose transgressions will only get more dangerous as she gets bigger and stronger.  And, while not teaching it, the coach must have seen it by now and leaving her in the game and not controlling this moron on the sideline makes him complicit as well.

So, while I agree with the coach that we have too many referees unwilling or incapable of protecting the kids (never mind the integrity of the game - an entirely different subject), the parents and coaches have a huge role in this problem as well.

shots fired! I missed this interesting post as I had checked out of it a long time ago. You are right, a lot of this comes down to being a 'step slower'.

Cobra_Kai wrote:

Gunner9 wrote:

weatherbug wrote:

IMO one of the dirtiest plays and unfortunately one frequently taught is the continuation foul. The one where a player consciously follows through after the ball has been played away ....[/i]

Recently played an 06 team (yes, 06!!!) who had a kid that did this consistently throughout the match.  Never once called/seen by the referee or AR.  We've played with this coach so I know he is not teaching this, but I've also witnessed this parent at training, indoor and outdoor games.  He wants so badly for his kid to be better than she is that he is incessantly on her to "get the ball" "be aggressive" "don't let her beat you" "push her back"....well, you get the picture.   Reality is the kid is a step slower than the level she is playing, so what do we get?  In an effort to please daddy, we get the creation of a dirty player whose transgressions will only get more dangerous as she gets bigger and stronger.  And, while not teaching it, the coach must have seen it by now and leaving her in the game and not controlling this moron on the sideline makes him complicit as well.

So, while I agree with the coach that we have too many referees unwilling or incapable of protecting the kids (never mind the integrity of the game - an entirely different subject), the parents and coaches have a huge role in this problem as well.

 shots fired!  I missed this interesting post as I had checked out of it a long time ago.  You are right, a lot of this comes down to being a 'step slower'.  

Saw an 05 Rush team this season with a player that played so dirty it made me wonder what the heck her parents and coach really thought of her tactics. It was really sad to see a 9 year old play with no respect for opposing players. I would be willing to forfeit or pull my kid from the game if she were placed on the field with them.

Gunner9 wrote:

weatherbug wrote:

IMO one of the dirtiest plays and unfortunately one frequently taught is the continuation foul. The one where a player consciously follows through after the ball has been played away ....[/i]

Recently played an 06 team (yes, 06!!!) who had a kid that did this consistently throughout the match.  Never once called/seen by the referee or AR.  We've played with this coach so I know he is not teaching this, but I've also witnessed this parent at training, indoor and outdoor games.  He wants so badly for his kid to be better than she is that he is incessantly on her to "get the ball" "be aggressive" "don't let her beat you" "push her back"....well, you get the picture.   Reality is the kid is a step slower than the level she is playing, so what do we get?  In an effort to please daddy, we get the creation of a dirty player whose transgressions will only get more dangerous as she gets bigger and stronger.  And, while not teaching it, the coach must have seen it by now and leaving her in the game and not controlling this moron on the sideline makes him complicit as well.

So, while I agree with the coach that we have too many referees unwilling or incapable of protecting the kids (never mind the integrity of the game - an entirely different subject), the parents and coaches have a huge role in this problem as well.

My observation over the years is that it is usually the parent who starts and fuels the fire to play overly physical, many coaches remain silent as they know the player could not contribute if they toned them down to play within the rules, though a few coaches do seem to encourage it with things, like be more physical, be more aggressive etc.

I still believe the only way to stop it is through the referees calling the fouls and carding the players out of the games and therefore changing the value proposition and risk reward of keeping players who play that style.

Does the Dallas area have a competitive futsal program that competes on a national stage? It would be nice to have a place for the skilled player to go work on ball skills, positioning/possession and smart defending without the violence and certain injury from thuggish play...let the lady football players have LH where they can beat each other up and play kickball as much as they want. In reality, only 2-3 players on the average LH team have excellent skills. The rest are just big and fast and not afraid to hit somebody.

Hooligan wrote:Does the Dallas area have a competitive futsal program that competes on a national stage?  It would be nice to have a place for the skilled player to go work on ball skills, positioning/possession and smart defending without the violence and certain injury from thuggish play...let the lady football players have LH where they can beat each other up and play kickball as much as they want.  In reality, only 2-3 players on the average LH team have excellent skills.  The rest are just big and fast and not afraid to hit somebody.

Some the most skilled players I have seen over the years can and do play rough, aggressive,dirty, hard nosed (your choice on what you want to call it) at times. They are not mutually exclusive. Just because a player has skills does not mean she can't play rough just as less skilled players do not always play rough.