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Post by Guest 25/03/14, 09:06 am

Gophers...I KNOW you are a numbers guy...how do you make these conclusions? Do you have access to the league's CPP data or are you just using the grapevine and what people send via PM.

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Post by Guest 25/03/14, 09:17 am

Gophers hacked the world!! He is THE MATRIX... HAHA

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Post by futbollove 25/03/14, 09:35 am

bwgophers wrote:
SolarPower00 wrote:

BWG,  I think we ALL are learning the effects of the new rule.
I think most CPP use is for the right reasons....I bet about 10% is not
And SOME results/standings  are starting to be influenced


Well, I was the big one on here saying "show me the proof", "show me the data"... and I unfortunately can't ignore the data that I've been getting over the past couple of weeks.  

Here is what the data is telling me...

- There are coaches/teams out there that could be using CPP for either "legitimate" reasons, or for competitive advantage under the guise of "legitimate" reasons, but have distinctly decided not to.
- There are coaches/teams out there that are using CPP for "legitimate" reasons (i.e. injury backfill and/or development opportunities).

However,

- Based on what I directly know of and/or been told, the large majority of CPP's are playing "down".  I'm going to say it's in the neighborhood of 5 or 6 to 1 for CPP's playing "down" vs. playing "up" on the CPP cases that I'm aware of.  My data is certainly not comprehensive, and it could be wrong (and I'd love for Duncan to come on here and tell me so), but I don't think I'm that far off.  If CPP was truly about development and not competitive advantage, there's no way the ratio is anywhere close to that high.  

- I'm getting direct input on cases where players from a lower division team are losing significant minutes to CPP's from upper division teams.  Some parents are getting upset about it, and some parents are o.k. with it (I still am having a hard time grasping the latter attitude, but I can no longer deny that it's out there).

- I've heard of at least 2 instances already where from the outside looking in, it's very hard to argue that players were brought down for any reason other than to help influence a result, and they appear to have been successful.  (...and NO, my DD's team wasn't involved in either of those.  They weren't even in the same age group as my DD).

What I would hope, is that at the end of the Spring season, LHGCL goes back and reviews the CPP data.  Specifically, take a look at what the ratio of CPP's playing "down" vs. playing "up" was.  That should be a very telling statistic, and I would say that if the ratio is higher than 60-40 or maybe even 70-30 for playing down vs. playing up, they should take a look a tweaking the rule to drive the balance to be closer to 50-50.
Just because a player is a D1 player, doesn't make them a difference maker or game changer in a D2 game. What if the CPP rule was used for the benefit of the D1 player? Is that not still a development opportunity? There are several players on D1 teams, that realistically should be playing D2 or lower. The development angle can and should go both ways.
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Post by Guest 25/03/14, 09:38 am

4-3-3 wrote:Gophers...I KNOW you are a numbers guy...how do you make these conclusions? Do you have access to the league's CPP data or are you just using the grapevine and what people send via PM.

Direct information from people who have told me what CPP's their own teams have used + some grapevine information that I would consider "credible".

I'm sure that what I am getting is less than a comprehensive sample, but it's enough that I would call it a "representative" sample. I didn't recount every conversation I've had or PM received, but I'm talking roughly 15 or so CPP's that I have direct 1st hand or credible 2nd hand knowledge of. Of those, only two cases are where a player played "up". Both cases were GK injury cases. In one case, an '02 D1 GK was CPP'd to an '01 D1 team, in another case, either a PPL or D3 GK was used on a D2 team. Every other CPP that I have knowledge of, including all field player CPP's, has been a D1 player playing down on a D2 or D3 team.

So, like I said, I could be wrong, and it could be that there are plenty of CPP's going on where D3 and D2 players are playing up in division, or younger players are being CPP'd to play up in age group. However, if that is happening, I'm certainly not hearing about it. If it is happening, I'd love for people to PM the cases where their DD's team had done it, or better yet, for DH or any other LHGCL rep that has direct knowledge of the CPP's used so far, to come on here and tell us that my information is incomplete and inaccurate.

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Post by Guest 25/03/14, 09:51 am

futbollove wrote:

Just because a player is a D1 player, doesn't make them a difference maker or game changer in a D2 game. What if the CPP rule was used for the benefit of the D1 player? Is that not still a development opportunity? There are several players on D1 teams, that realistically should be playing D2 or lower. The development angle can and should go both ways.

I 100% agree. It should go both ways, and if it was going both ways and was truly about development, then the #'s should be split roughly 50-50 between CPP's playing "up" vs. playing "down". The CPP's that I have direct information about are closer to 80-90% CPP's playing down. Those kind of #'s just aren't consistent with the "spirit of the rule" as stated by LHGCL. I didn't think it was going to be that way, but right now, I have to admit that it appears that I was wrong about how clubs/teams would use CPP.


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Post by wxyz 25/03/14, 10:00 am

scoregazam wrote:
...

With that being said... I still think it gives an unfair advantage to the larger clubs and leaves the independents who are facing the same struggles as the large clubs (injuries, illnesses, volleyball games, basketball games etc.) at a disadvantage.

...

A better characterization would be:

...it gives an unfair advantage to the clubs that are using the rule to get promoted, avoid relegation, etc. and leaves the clubs that cannot or only use the rule for the intended purposes at a disadvantage.

Willingness to use the rule for "the wrong reasons" has nothing to do with being a large club or being independent.  The rule gives large clubs more opportunities to "cheat" but not all large clubs cheat.  Independents are not at a disadvantage if they have the means and the willingness.

Case in point:  Kicks Gold in '01.  Their record improved from 1 win, 2 ties, 2 loses, 3 goals for, and 4 goals against during the fall season to 5 wins and 0 loses, 14 goals for, and 3 goals against in the spring season against the same 5 teams!

Is it possible that they improved that much over the winter break?  Yes.  Is it also possible that their D1 players are helping out to secure a D1 promotion for their D2 sister team?  Also yes.

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Post by Guest 25/03/14, 10:24 am

wxyz wrote:
scoregazam wrote:
...

With that being said... I still think it gives an unfair advantage to the larger clubs and leaves the independents who are facing the same struggles as the large clubs (injuries, illnesses, volleyball games, basketball games etc.) at a disadvantage.

...

A better characterization would be:

...it gives an unfair advantage to the clubs that are using the rule to get promoted, avoid relegation, etc. and leaves the clubs that cannot or only use the rule for the intended purposes at a disadvantage.

Willingness to use the rule for "the wrong reasons" has nothing to do with being a large club or being independent.  The rule gives large clubs more opportunities to "cheat" but not all large clubs cheat.  Independents are not at a disadvantage if they have the means and the willingness.

Case in point:  Kicks Gold in '01.  Their record improved from 1 win, 2 ties, 2 loses, 3 goals for, and 4 goals against during the fall season to 5 wins and 0 loses, 14 goals for, and 3 goals against in the spring season against the same 5 teams!

Is it possible that they improved that much over the winter break?  Yes.  Is it also possible that their D1 players are helping out to secure a D1 promotion?  Also yes.

Sorry, gotta defend Kicks G on this one...  When our girls played them this Spring, I am not aware of any CPP's that were used.  They only had 2 subs on their bench, and there were not any players on the pitch that stood out as "ringers".  Our girls 0-1 loss to them was the result of a well played game by both teams where Kicks G converted an opportunity and our girls failed to convert any of theirs.

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Post by aTmAg 25/03/14, 10:29 am

ez_now_girls wrote:
aTmAg wrote:I have heard that one of the FCD players who left over the winter was due to the fact that their DD wasn't named a starter the moment she returned from an injury. God forbid the coach wanting too ease her back into things. I have heard other teams have problems with this particular parent. I can't speak for any other girls who left that team.


It is really a sad thing when someone makes false statements.  Lies like these are the reason so many families have pulled their DDs from this team.  I have had several conversations with this family and the environment, not his DD starting, was the reason he removed her from this team.  Also, this was the second select team and the family is on good terms with their prior coach.  They have suggested various families take their dds over to that team.  Get the facts straight!

Did the other families remove their daughters because they were not starting or did they remove their daughters because of people like YOU?  I would suggest the latter.  While you are spreading lies on this one, it would be great to know why you think ALL OF THE OTHER FAMILIES REMOVED THEIR DAUGHTERS!!  

Instead of making suggestions that slander a family, why not work on fixing the reasons so many families have departed from your team?  I think I heard that one of the girls that guest played in the game  yesterday was one of FCD's former players.  Is that true?  Maybe, just maybe, she would still be there if not for parents like you.  What do ya think? That is not me suggesting lies or offering misinformation, that is me asking an honest question.  Or is honesty something you avoid?
I don't have a daughter on the team. Nice try though.

We could be talking about a different girl. But the one I'm talking about is definitely NOT on good terms with his previous coach. They left their prior team and tried to get several players to defect with them. Yet none of them left.

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Post by jm23jm 25/03/14, 10:50 am

wxyz wrote:

A better characterization would be:

...it gives an unfair advantage to the clubs that are using the rule to get promoted, avoid relegation, etc. and leaves the clubs that cannot or only use the rule for the intended purposes at a disadvantage.

Willingness to use the rule for "the wrong reasons" has nothing to do with being a large club or being independent.  The rule gives large clubs more opportunities to "cheat" but not all large clubs cheat.  Independents are not at a disadvantage if they have the means and the willingness.

Case in point:  Kicks Gold in '01.  Their record improved from 1 win, 2 ties, 2 loses, 3 goals for, and 4 goals against during the fall season to 5 wins and 0 loses, 14 goals for, and 3 goals against in the spring season against the same 5 teams!




Is it possible that they improved that much over the winter break?  Yes.  Is it also possible that their D1 players are helping out to secure a D1 promotion for
their D2 sister team?  Also yes.
  I will let you be the judge of this. Here are the facts.

1 player pass vs FT Worth game (defender)
0 player pass vs Solar
1 player pass vs Liverpool (defender)
0 player pass vs Sting Hilton
0 player pass vs Sting Grey
0 will be used vs TX Spirit. We will be without another player due to a concussion this past weekend.

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Post by jm23jm 25/03/14, 10:57 am

bwgophers wrote:
Sorry, gotta defend Kicks G on this one...  When our girls played them this Spring, I am not aware of any CPP's that were used.  They only had 2 subs on their bench, and there were not any players on the pitch that stood out as "ringers".  Our girls 0-1 loss to them was the result of a well played game by both teams where Kicks G converted an opportunity and our girls failed to convert any of theirs.

It was a very well played game. Your girls play a good brand of soccer.

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Post by SolarPower00 25/03/14, 11:10 am

Appreciate the transparency jm23jm.

Kicks are in a nice CPP position by having a U13 team in DI, DII, and DIII. Some big clubs would be envious of that.
 Their limited use of the rule, and for the right reasons....is admirable. Hopefully that trend continues
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Post by Guest 25/03/14, 11:17 am

jm23jm wrote:
wxyz wrote:

A better characterization would be:

...it gives an unfair advantage to the clubs that are using the rule to get promoted, avoid relegation, etc. and leaves the clubs that cannot or only use the rule for the intended purposes at a disadvantage.

Willingness to use the rule for "the wrong reasons" has nothing to do with being a large club or being independent.  The rule gives large clubs more opportunities to "cheat" but not all large clubs cheat.  Independents are not at a disadvantage if they have the means and the willingness.

Case in point:  Kicks Gold in '01.  Their record improved from 1 win, 2 ties, 2 loses, 3 goals for, and 4 goals against during the fall season to 5 wins and 0 loses, 14 goals for, and 3 goals against in the spring season against the same 5 teams!




Is it possible that they improved that much over the winter break?  Yes.  Is it also possible that their D1 players are helping out to secure a D1 promotion for
their D2 sister team?  Also yes.
  I will let you be the judge of this. Here are the facts.

1 player pass vs FT Worth game (defender)
0 player pass vs Solar
1 player pass vs Liverpool (defender)
0 player pass vs Sting Hilton
0 player pass vs Sting Grey
0 will be used vs TX Spirit. We will be without another player due to a concussion this past weekend.

Hey JM!

While you are in the mood for full disclosure, care to help me out with my survey? Any CPP's from Gold/Blue -> SC, Blue->Gold, or SC/Gold -> Blue so far this Spring?  Very Happy 

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Post by jm23jm 25/03/14, 12:08 pm

.[/quote]

Hey JM!

While you are in the mood for full disclosure, care to help me out with my survey?  Any CPP's from Gold/Blue -> SC, Blue->Gold, or SC/Gold -> Blue so far this Spring?   Very Happy [/quote]

KB lost their keeper first half of season. The first two games of the season KB had a Sat and Sunday game. KSC played on Sunday and KG played on Saturday, so we CPP our D1 keeper to D3 on Sat and our D2 keeper on Sun.

2 players from KSC have CPP to D2 due to a player leaving team and injuries.  I also felt the two players could have used the extra playing time.

No player has been passed up to D2 or D1.  There are several players in my club  I'd like to CPP but if I do, two things will happen. The original team will be without a starter, thus hurting the team. Also, parents will all be asking, waiting for their turn. This year the rosters were set. If injuries or unexpected things happen I will use the rule.  Next year if rule is still in place I plan on using it more often for development. Yea yea yea I know that is all bull.

There are several quality girls on my D2 team that deserve to play on my D1 team.  Next year before a player signs a contract with my teams I can explain how I plan on using the CPP rule.  Of course, that is if rule is here to stay. I don't care either way, just tell me the rules and I will follow them and use them to develop my players.

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Post by ez_now_girls 25/03/14, 12:12 pm

aTmAg wrote:
ez_now_girls wrote:
aTmAg wrote:I have heard that one of the FCD players who left over the winter was due to the fact that their DD wasn't named a starter the moment she returned from an injury. God forbid the coach wanting too ease her back into things. I have heard other teams have problems with this particular parent. I can't speak for any other girls who left that team.


It is really a sad thing when someone makes false statements.  Lies like these are the reason so many families have pulled their DDs from this team.  I have had several conversations with this family and the environment, not his DD starting, was the reason he removed her from this team.  Also, this was the second select team and the family is on good terms with their prior coach.  They have suggested various families take their dds over to that team.  Get the facts straight!

Did the other families remove their daughters because they were not starting or did they remove their daughters because of people like YOU?  I would suggest the latter.  While you are spreading lies on this one, it would be great to know why you think ALL OF THE OTHER FAMILIES REMOVED THEIR DAUGHTERS!!  

Instead of making suggestions that slander a family, why not work on fixing the reasons so many families have departed from your team?  I think I heard that one of the girls that guest played in the game  yesterday was one of FCD's former players.  Is that true?  Maybe, just maybe, she would still be there if not for parents like you.  What do ya think? That is not me suggesting lies or offering misinformation, that is me asking an honest question.  Or is honesty something you avoid?
I don't have a daughter on the team.  Nice try though.

We could be talking about a different girl.  But the one I'm talking about is definitely NOT on good terms with his previous coach.  They left their prior team and tried to get several players to defect with them.  Yet none of them left.






Again, please check your facts.  The father and coach were very close.  It was highly emotional and they appear to have made peace a long time ago.  The father and I are friends and I just read the text exchanged today between he and the coach.  The coach said he says that he has no problem with the family.  So, either the coach is lying to the parent or you don't know what you are talking about.  

It must be an empowering thing to hide in cyberspace and throw out statements and not care about their truthfulness. The young lady in question works hard, plays hard and was appointed team captain while on that team.  Again, a highly, highly emotional situation and they appear to have made peace with whatever happened.

Why is it necessary for you to attempt to chime in?  Apparently you know more than the coach.  Instead of assuming you know ask him or again I guess you could just be calling that coach a liar.  According to the father, the coach is actually a good guy, he doesn't think the coach would lie?  Sounds to me that you might really need to ask the coach or at least limit your conversations to topics of which you have actual knowledge.  Or at least have the courage to actually have an adult conversation with the person or family you are discussing.

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Post by Guest 25/03/14, 12:16 pm

jm23jm wrote:.

Hey JM!

While you are in the mood for full disclosure, care to help me out with my survey?  Any CPP's from Gold/Blue -> SC, Blue->Gold, or SC/Gold -> Blue so far this Spring?   Very Happy [/quote]

KB lost their keeper first half of season. The first two games of the season KB had a Sat and Sunday game. KSC played on Sunday and KG played on Saturday, so we CPP our D1 keeper to D3 on Sat and our D2 keeper on Sun.

2 players from KSC have CPP to D2 due to a player leaving team and injuries.  I also felt the two players could have used the extra playing time.

No player has been passed up to D2 or D1.  There are several players in my club  I'd like to CPP but if I do, two things will happen. The original team will be without a starter, thus hurting the team. Also, parents will all be asking, waiting for their turn. This year the rosters were set. If injuries or unexpected things happen I will use the rule.  Next year if rule is still in place I plan on using it more often for development. Yea yea yea I know that is all bull.

There are several quality girls on my D2 team that deserve to play on my D1 team.  Next year before a player signs a contract with my teams I can explain how I plan on using the CPP rule.  Of course, that is if rule is here to stay. I don't care either way, just tell me the rules and I will follow them and use them to develop my players.[/quote]

Thanks J! Always appreciate the candor and honesty.

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Post by aTmAg 25/03/14, 12:24 pm

The girl I'm talking about was not captain. I think we are talking about 2 different people here.

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Post by okiedokie 25/03/14, 01:58 pm

ez_now_girls wrote:
The young lady in question works hard, plays hard and was appointed team captain while on that team.  Again, a highly, highly emotional situation and they appear to have made peace with whatever happened.

Well no problem, as she can now return to her previous team.  Her former teammates will be happy to hear the team captain has returned!!

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Post by Snake Master 25/03/14, 10:17 pm

Very Happy sssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss

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