Refs don't give a flip

SoccerShocker wrote:

silentparent wrote:

SoccerShocker wrote:

silentparent wrote:fouls happen when you play aggressively, thats why there are refs and thats why there are cards. every girl gets too aggressive sometimes and sometime the ref says play on and they should or the game gets so choppy it's not even soccer. would you like to drive on the highway with a policeman enforcing every single infraction on the highway? not me, just the more egregious ones..

Soccer is not driving - that's an apples to oranges reference there...  

These kids need guidance on how to play the game and by not having any rules it creates players, when they get older, that don't understand why their getting these calls cause they had been OK up until now...  This is a great age for the refs to teach these kids when it's too much and when it's not...  I don't care if they call a foul or not, at least let the kid know to keep the arm down or don't extend when giving a friendly nudge or that throat hack was unnecessary...  simple stuff so these kids can learn the right way to play the game, not how to play soccerhockey...

No, this is select. it is the coaches job to coach not the ref. its his or her job is to enforce the rules of soccer and keep the game flowing....

So you're saying the ref has no business giving a kid a quick message, instead let them play as the coach would teach them?  That's why the refs are there, to keep the what the coaches teach under control.  These kids are already playing the way the coaches teach them, it's up to the refs to keep the safety and rules of the game intact...  I'm just saying at this age, there's no need to throw a yellow card or take away from the flow of the game by blowing a whistle every time little "Suzy" yanks on a jersey, pulls on an arm, body blocks a player off a ball or elbows someone in the mouth.  Just give 'em a little friendly warning, then if they do it again, stop play, blow a whistle, give a card, whatever...

i can agree to that. i was referring to refs having all sorts of chats with players instead of enforcing the rules, like in academy...btw i believe in refs punishing coaches who teach kids to blatantly foul with free kicks over and over. let the team suffer if thats their playing style, it will change quick when it costs them games...

The coaches know, or teach.

and I am not talking about overly excited, physical and aggressive play.

There are players (individually) in the league who are known for their illegal, cheap shots.  On the ball, and away from the ball.  Sometimes they get caught and penalized, sometimes not (or it is seen, but not penalized).  The coach knows and allows it to continue.

There are some teams who are known for their style of play.  When the vast majority of players on a team are tripping and shoving (hands fully extended, etc.), and fouling away from the ball, don't be so naive to think it isn't being coached.

I have seen a coach teach players to trip and grab jerseys and told them "if the ref doesn't call it, it isn't a foul".  And this team isn't playing in LH.

slrsoccer wrote:

soccerisfun wrote:notsosilentparent said I would piss and moan if a foul got called on my daughter - I said I encourage her to play agrressive.  An occasional foul for being "overly aggressive" (NOT hacking, chopping down someone, head shots, etc.) - but simply play that a ref deems to be overly agressive - is not a problem.  

I would rather her play that way - than a kid who is never willing to fight for the ball and is never in a position to get an occasional foul called - she used to play like that.  That's all I am saying.

Understand, but you might want to rethink what you are saying.  My point is that if you want to be over aggressive, do it in the attacking third or middle third, don't do it in your own third as you are potentially giving the opposition a legitimate goal scoring chance.  This understanding of the game isn't something 10 year olds are going to pick up on unless it is taught.  Nothing pisses me off more than when little Suzy barrels through a player 20 yards from goal and here parents are yelling "good job - way to be aggressive".  The other team takes a free kick, scores and now the other 10 players on the field have to deal with the consequences of little Suzy's stupidity.

Again, I stand firm in my belief that it is the parents that cause this issue more so than the refs, even though the refs are not perfect.

Thanks - completely get your points.  Was mainly posting a repsonse to "pissing and moaning" over my daughter getting a foul called on her.

Someone is going to get hurt. I have seen more forwards driving with the ball and just get clobbered in or near the box. Maybe a whistle is blown. Then you hear the parents say "Way too be physical" Just plain stupid. A card is the only way for the player to understand when the parents are encouraging this style of play.

Just read that last year in Classic league 80 parents were tossed and only 5 cards were issued. That does not add up. Parents tossed because their kids are being tossed around and refs not making calls. Hope it goes better this season.

MoGoSoccer wrote:Just read that last year in Classic league 80 parents were tossed and only 5 cards were issued. That does not add up. Parents tossed because their kids are being tossed around and refs not making calls. Hope it goes better this season.

I think the numbers are right on track. No doubt a few more cards can be issued but the parents have to do a better job controlling themselves.

I would challenge the parents to take a conscious listen to things that are said on YOUR sidelines. My guess is that your team is no different than mine, which is really the problem.

Kid falls down - parents yell, must be a foul - incorrect
Kid falls down - legitimate foul - parents yell - even though the ref has already blown his whistle for the foul
No kid falls down - ref calls foul - parents yell because someone must fall in order to be a foul - incorrect

Are there dirty players? Yes, but if you are honest with yourself these kids are few and far between. Most are just clumsy 10 year old girls who aren't the best at timing tackles yet. It doesn't mean they are out to hurt other players it means they aren't that coordinated yet. If the refs do their jobs (understand it a big IF) they will notice repeat offenders and handle it.

If you don't hear the items mentioned above, my guess is that you are one of the parents yelling.

Actually I would say that a majority of the refs DO give a flip and that it is a majority of the parents that DON'T have a full understanding of the rules of the game.

Soccer is a contact sport, just because contact is made is doesn't mean there is a penalty.

smellsliketeamspirit wrote:Couldn't have Been Texans-Scott...

They've Got Some Big, Aggressive Girls, but they ALL Played Well Within the Rules, this Past Saturday...No Extended Arms, No Exaggerated Hip Checks, No High Kicks, No Grabbing...

Nada...

Will second my colleague on this. The beat down we received was by a superior team all well within the rules.

MoGoSoccer wrote:Why are you calling out SUZY? No Suzy did not get pushed. "Suzy" got chopped at the knees. Full extension of arms, jerseys held. Shoulder first then get the ball.  Parents cheered. Very unfortunate. Glad to see a few other parents saw the same crap I did.

shoulder first. then the ball. sounds like soccer to me

I would have to say as they get older, faster, and more skilled you see less blantant body contact. The ball moves more and your DD is not trying to dribble over everyone. In addition, the larger less coordinated player looses out to more skilled player. 04 is a tough age and LH is very physical league, but I do not think it is dirty play and I have never felt a coach was teaching those tactics.

silentparent wrote:fouls happen when you play aggressively, thats why there are refs and thats why there are cards. every girl gets too aggressive sometimes and sometime the ref says play on and they should or the game gets so choppy it's not even soccer. would you like to drive on the highway with a policeman enforcing every single infraction on the highway? not me, just the more egregious ones..

actually the "cards" are not for fouls. fouls are unlimited, unlike basketball. as in basketball, fouls are strategic in use. now HARSH and DANGEROUS fouls should be carded.

silentparent wrote:

soccerisfun wrote:notsosilentparent said I would piss and moan if a foul got called on my daughter - I said I encourage her to play agrressive.  An occasional foul for being "overly aggressive" (NOT hacking, chopping down someone, head shots, etc.) - but simply play that a ref deems to be overly agressive - is not a problem.  

I would rather her play that way - than a kid who is never willing to fight for the ball and is never in a position to get an occasional foul called - she used to play like that.  That's all I am saying.

i just find it hard to believe that those type of fouls are  A occurring B not being called especially at the 04 level...

They especially are, NOT CALLED, at the 04 level.Things calm down and even out as kids mature and fight back

ONLYASOCCERDAD wrote:

silentparent wrote:

soccerisfun wrote:notsosilentparent said I would piss and moan if a foul got called on my daughter - I said I encourage her to play agrressive.  An occasional foul for being "overly aggressive" (NOT hacking, chopping down someone, head shots, etc.) - but simply play that a ref deems to be overly agressive - is not a problem.  

I would rather her play that way - than a kid who is never willing to fight for the ball and is never in a position to get an occasional foul called - she used to play like that.  That's all I am saying.

i just find it hard to believe that those type of fouls are  A occurring B not being called especially at the 04 level...

They especially are, NOT CALLED, at the 04 level.Things calm down and even out as kids mature and fight back

bullsht, more like klutzy girls than intentional kidney punches, forearm swats to the head etc, new select parents are so touchy...

They are all princesses at this age. I've never seen a 10 yr old push another one down on purpose.

MoGoSoccer wrote:Just read that last year in Classic league 80 parents were tossed and only 5 cards were issued. That does not add up. Parents tossed because their kids are being tossed around and refs not making calls. Hope it goes better this season.

FIFA rules are clear and leave NO room for sentiment on the part of the referee:


FIFA Interpretation Rules
--------------------
“Reckless” means that the player has acted with complete disregard to the danger to, or consequences for, his opponent.
A player who plays in a reckless manner must be cautioned (yellow card)

“Using excessive force” means that the player has far exceeded the necessary use of force and is in danger of injuring his opponent.
A player who uses excessive force must be sent off (red card)

-------------------------------

There is just too much smash mouth play in LH week in and week out and unfortunately we have become de-sensitized to it and many have come to accepted it as the norm.  
I watched an 03G game last year where a dozen reckless challenges (I do not exagerate) went without a referee caution and the game escalated to dangerous retaliation play.  From chopping and pushing from behind with no intent to play the ball, pulling players down by the neck, and high boots into abdomen.  

In fact I did not see one yellow card the entire season out of the 50+ 03G games I watched.  Cautions (cards) are part of the game, yet there is a strong reluctance to use them here.

Its time to reset the bar per the rules... the referees are key, and so is parent understanding and expectation.

If a yellow card is warranted, in the long run it is best for the kids, as they will adjust their game, develop skills and technique rather than rely on brawn.  And kids on the receiving end of a reckless or dangerous challange, they deserve to be protected per the rules!

But ALSO as important for the overall game in NTX, as high level technical play is very difficult to develop in a smash mouth environment at any age.    

Germany Coach Loew comments at World Cup:
(Reuters) - The current Brazil team bear little resemblance to their artistic sides of the past and Germany coach Joachim Loew hopes Tuesday's semi-final referee takes a tough stance against any attempts to disrupt the flow of the game.

"We always think of magicians with the ball when we think of Brazil," he said. "But that's not the case anymore. Their team has changed and physical toughness is now part of their game. We've got to adjust to that - as do the referees."

"There's precious little left of that traditional Brazilian style of soccer, that artistic style of playing that we all know so well," Loew said.

"For sure, Brazil still have good technical players. But they're playing more robustly than any other team here and they have been trying to break up their opponent's attack that way.  (Brazil led all teams in fouls)

"At the end of the day it's up to the referee to come up with the correct punishment," said Loew.
=================================


http://www.fifa.com/mm/document/worldfootball/clubfootball/01/37/04/28/law12-en.pdf
http://www.fifa.com/aboutfifa/footballdevelopment/technicalsupport/refereeing/laws-of-the-game/interpretation/index.html
http://www.fifa.com/mm/document/worldfootball/clubfootball/01/37/04/21/i

rustynail11 wrote:Actually I would say that a majority of the refs DO give a flip and that it is a majority of the parents that DON'T have a full understanding of the rules of the game.  

Soccer is a contact sport, just because contact is made is doesn't mean there is a penalty.

and just because there is a foul doesn't mean it wasn't a "good foul". there is a HUGE difference between a foul and dirty play, which may result in a foul being called.

silentparent wrote:

ONLYASOCCERDAD wrote:

silentparent wrote:

soccerisfun wrote:notsosilentparent said I would piss and moan if a foul got called on my daughter - I said I encourage her to play agrressive.  An occasional foul for being "overly aggressive" (NOT hacking, chopping down someone, head shots, etc.) - but simply play that a ref deems to be overly agressive - is not a problem.  

I would rather her play that way - than a kid who is never willing to fight for the ball and is never in a position to get an occasional foul called - she used to play like that.  That's all I am saying.

i just find it hard to believe that those type of fouls are  A occurring B not being called especially at the 04 level...

They especially are, NOT CALLED, at the 04 level.Things calm down and even out as kids mature and fight back

bullsht, more like klutzy girls than intentional kidney punches, forearm swats to the head etc, new select parents are so touchy...

yes they are touchy and MANY times ignorant of the "laws of the game". just go back and look at every U11 club thread each year. this is nothing new

ONLYASOCCERDAD wrote:

silentparent wrote:

ONLYASOCCERDAD wrote:

silentparent wrote:

soccerisfun wrote:notsosilentparent said I would piss and moan if a foul got called on my daughter - I said I encourage her to play agrressive.  An occasional foul for being "overly aggressive" (NOT hacking, chopping down someone, head shots, etc.) - but simply play that a ref deems to be overly agressive - is not a problem.  

I would rather her play that way - than a kid who is never willing to fight for the ball and is never in a position to get an occasional foul called - she used to play like that.  That's all I am saying.

i just find it hard to believe that those type of fouls are  A occurring B not being called especially at the 04 level...

They especially are, NOT CALLED, at the 04 level.Things calm down and even out as kids mature and fight back

bullsht, more like klutzy girls than intentional kidney punches, forearm swats to the head etc, new select parents are so touchy...

yes they are touchy and MANY times ignorant of the "laws of the game". just go back and look at every U11 club thread each year. this is nothing new

Of course it's nothing new, by golly, no one wants to set the precedent that it's been handled incorrectly for so many years...

silentparent wrote:

ONLYASOCCERDAD wrote:

silentparent wrote:

soccerisfun wrote:notsosilentparent said I would piss and moan if a foul got called on my daughter - I said I encourage her to play agrressive.  An occasional foul for being "overly aggressive" (NOT hacking, chopping down someone, head shots, etc.) - but simply play that a ref deems to be overly agressive - is not a problem.  

I would rather her play that way - than a kid who is never willing to fight for the ball and is never in a position to get an occasional foul called - she used to play like that.  That's all I am saying.

i just find it hard to believe that those type of fouls are  A occurring B not being called especially at the 04 level...

They especially are, NOT CALLED, at the 04 level.Things calm down and even out as kids mature and fight back

bullsht, more like klutzy girls than intentional kidney punches, forearm swats to the head etc, new select parents are so touchy...

I was there.  There is CLEARLY a difference between "klutzy girls" and "kidney punches".  They were clearly punches and others saw it as well.

You weren't there - you didn't see it.  So to make this claim means you are an ass or an idiot.

soccerisfun wrote:

silentparent wrote:

ONLYASOCCERDAD wrote:

silentparent wrote:

soccerisfun wrote:notsosilentparent said I would piss and moan if a foul got called on my daughter - I said I encourage her to play agrressive.  An occasional foul for being "overly aggressive" (NOT hacking, chopping down someone, head shots, etc.) - but simply play that a ref deems to be overly agressive - is not a problem.  

I would rather her play that way - than a kid who is never willing to fight for the ball and is never in a position to get an occasional foul called - she used to play like that.  That's all I am saying.

i just find it hard to believe that those type of fouls are  A occurring B not being called especially at the 04 level...

They especially are, NOT CALLED, at the 04 level.Things calm down and even out as kids mature and fight back

bullsht, more like klutzy girls than intentional kidney punches, forearm swats to the head etc, new select parents are so touchy...

I was there.  There is CLEARLY a difference between "klutzy girls" and "kidney punches".  They were clearly punches and others saw it as well.

You weren't there - you didn't see it.  So to make this claim means you are an ass or an idiot.

I would hope that you have begun the process of letting LH and NT know what you saw regarding the punching and intentional dirty play. If you actually saw these things occur then you would be doing everyone who plays this team in the future a disservice by not going through the proper channels to report it. I would start with the coach, then call the club and make sure to let LH and NT soccer know that they have a team playing in their league and governing body that is out on the field intentionally kidney punching other players.

We thank you in advance for doing this and your reporting of these incidents will help ensure the safety of all of our kids this season.

Thanks.  The incident didn't happen last weekend, but rather in a tournament.

I also saw a player lay down a clothesline on a player twice in a game.  The first time, I could not believe what I saw, but confirmed it the second time.  Of course, she "could have just been klutzy", or, when seeing a player running back, and the ball on the other side of the field, lifted her arm straight out at neck level.

Most of the line judges are pretty friendly, and if the parents aren't jerks, will actually joke around.  I kindly requested that he watch a player away from the ball for the same action.  He did, saw the foul, and alerted the referee.  The ref called a foul and it didn't happen again.

Should she have received a yellow?  Without a doubt.  But the ref took action and the behavior stopped.  But I guarantee you that was not the first time is had happened.

soccerisfun wrote:Thanks.  The incident didn't happen last weekend, but rather in a tournament.

I also saw a player lay down a clothesline on a player twice in a game.  The first time, I could not believe what I saw, but confirmed it the second time.  Of course, she "could have just been klutzy", or, when seeing a player running back, and the ball on the other side of the field, lifted her arm straight out at neck level.

Most of the line judges are pretty friendly, and if the parents aren't jerks, will actually joke around.  I kindly requested that he watch a player away from the ball for the same action.  He did, saw the foul, and alerted the referee.  The ref called a foul and it didn't happen again.

Should she have received a yellow?  Without a doubt.  But the ref took action and the behavior stopped.  But I guarantee you that was not the first time is had happened.

I am impressed these girls know where the kidney is located. I would think they had not had an anatomy class yet. I mean, they are doing it intentionally, right?

Also, you resort to calling someone names because they weren't there, didnt see it, etc, yet you guarantee that was not the first time the "clothesline" had happened. But in your own words, since you didnt see it before that game and are only assuming, you are an ass and or an idiot. Can we agree on that?

Ok, to make it simple for you - kidney punches do not actually require the person punching to know where the kidneys are or to have taken an anatomy class.

Sure - I called him an ass for making the claim, that something he didn't see, was attributable to the "klutzy" girls as opposed to being intentional.

And you are right - a girl clotheslining another player after watching to make sure the ball was on the other side of the field, was likely the first (and second, and third) time she has done it.

and my apologies - the sum of her actions made it readily apparent that she had done this before

but I will admit this could have been the first time