So, your Dad wants the Shirt ?

If your (Dad's) objective is to get you on a winning team... then that's pretty easy. Some Dad's even sign up their daughters to be on the taxi squad, just so Dad can wear the Shirt!

Unfortunately too many kids are taught to ride someone elses reputation. What kind of a (decent) life-lesson are we teaching our DD by trying to cut corners? What type of judgement do we teach about the value of "Earning" a reputation?

How about MAKING your own reputation from Nothing; Zero; Zilch? Boy, is it difficult to make something out of nothing! But, when it's done, you have something you OWN. It's yours and not someone else's - nobody can take it away from you! You may share it. But only your team-mates can know the real story -because you earned it together. You did not borrow it so it cannot be left behind.

The lessons taught through the hardship of working every step of the way to success and not cutting corners builds real citizens. Maybe I'm from the old-school, but I believe I am riding on the shoulders of people who avoided short-cuts.... I am glad I am with a Club that believes the same.... I know my DD will learn from all the Wins and Losses in the challenges she faces this season.... as the coaches and leadership at the club where she currently plays say: "the game is full of mistakes. Your job is to eliminate more mistakes than the opposition...". When we do that: We earn the Shirt
See you on the Pitch! My Shirt will never be borrowed!

i agree with your idea that the shirt you wear means nothing! I beleive all the young DD playing the game work very hard and sacrafice alot no matter the shirt they wear!

SaintsDad02 wrote:How about MAKING your own reputation from Nothing; Zero; Zilch? Boy, is it difficult to make something out of nothing! But, when it's done, you have something you OWN. It's yours and not someone else's - nobody can take it away from you! You may share it. But only your team-mates can know the real story -because you earned it together. [/b][/u]

Yes- well said!

When my daughter scores I kiss my badge.

Not sure what you are trying to get around to. My dd has played for many teams, and not once did they just give her a jersey. Every kid out there earns her jersey. And to my knowledge, not 1 coach would just give a girl a jersey if she did not help the team. But I do think that some jerseys hold more clout than others. But would be proud of MY DD for whatever jersey she wore.

I think what you are trying to say is 'if you stay on the team you are on and eventually build your team into a serious contender/champion team' you will feel more satisfaction that joining a team that is already dang good.

This is true only if you actually pull it off and do it.

There are two sides to every coin. If your team has 14 particularly slooooowww girls, you are destined for Plano D2 or Arlington, maybe Plano D1, no matter how long you stick to your guns unless puberty transforms some foot speed. Not that there is anything wrong with Plano D1, it is more competitive than most LHGCL people realize and my older DDs team has won a few games in tournaments against LHGCL D2/D3 teams. But 99.99999999999999% of Plano D2 teams don't crawl back through Plano D1 wars and LHGCL D3 wars into LHGCL D2 and never, as far as I know, LHGCL D1. The odds and the system is just superstacked against it.

I had a kid that stayed loyal and stuck to it never switching teams. They got better but so did all the other teams. They had fun but so did everyone else. Nothing wrong about being on the #35 best team in the city but it is what it is. From my prev experience, the odds are against a team moving up >10 slots unless it is overflowing in raw talent that only needs a lot of coaching and polish. The raw talent has to be there tho! The hardtruth is you don't get fresh recruits with lots of talent when your team is in Plano so if your team has no pace it has to get really good at playing around its weakness.

It ain't about bragging rites about what team u r on or ??dad shirt wearing?? as this poster says. A responsible parent needs to understand and weigh the odds. I don't know a lot of people comfy with 10:1 odds or 50:1 odds. It depends on what your DDs goal is. If its highschool soccer, being in LHGCL is a serious plus. If the goal is college soccer, triple that benefit of LHGCL. D1 College? Pretty much required I'd say.

I have always hated the saying, “If you can’t beat ’em, join ‘em.” I think that’s a quitter’s way out of a tough situation. It is definitely not a lesson I want to teach my children. I would rather teach them, “If you can’t beat ’em… go back and work on your mistakes. Fix the things that cause you to fail. Get better, get stronger, and then go back and beat them.”

I agree with Saints02Dad that loyalty is a very important lesson to teach your DD. I also agree that teaching kids how to build something for themselves, like a great team, is tremendously important.

I also agree with javajake. A team that starts their first year in select in Plano 3 or Arlington 3 has almost no chance to ever make it to Classic 1. The system works against that. There’s a much greater chance that they’ll start to struggle and eventually dissolve. You may think your team can get to the top with hard work, grit, and determination but you’re fooling yourself if you don’t realize that all the other teams ahead of them aren’t working just as hard or harder. I got to see the USWNT practice on Wednesday. The most impressive part of seeing it for me was the speed and intensity they practice with. Those women aren’t JUST super-talented. They worked harder in practice than any team I’ve ever seen. They're on the top but they work very hard to stay on top.

In select soccer I think you need to give weight to your kids’ goals and you need to be adaptable accordingly. Is she willing to always play the underdog role so she can stay with her friends? Does she want the chance to play at an even higher level? Those two goals may align sometimes but not all the time.

What if you just want a new shirt that fits better?

Madmom wrote:What if you just want a new shirt that fits better?

Agreed.

Saints02Dad... The tone of your post makes it seem as though you take a great amount of pride in the t-shirt you're currently wearing. Your note also implies that this team's t-shirt just lost a couple players that are important to the squad. And your screen name implies that you DD is getting ready to sign her first contract in July.

Before tryouts come you may need to consider if the t-shirt you're currently wearing is still the right one. Will you stay there because you're dug in and want to make a statement? Or will you stay in that t-shirt because that's what your DD wants? Or is it time to look for a new t-shirt because the one you're currently wearing now has a couple big holes?

The only person that you should be loyal to is your DD. Dont get caught holding the bag because you were overly loyal to a coach or team. Your DD will need to hear many voices during her soccer playing days

bigtex75081 wrote:I have always hated the saying, “If you can’t beat ’em, join ‘em.” I think that’s a quitter’s way out of a tough situation. It is definitely not a lesson I want to teach my children. I would rather teach them, “If you can’t beat ’em… go back and work on your mistakes. Fix the things that cause you to fail. Get better, get stronger, and then go back and beat them.”

I agree with Saints02Dad that loyalty is a very important lesson to teach your DD. I also agree that teaching kids how to build something for themselves, like a great team, is tremendously important.

I also agree with javajake. A team that starts their first year in select in Plano 3 or Arlington 3 has almost no chance to ever make it to Classic 1. The system works against that. There’s a much greater chance that they’ll start to struggle and eventually dissolve. You may think your team can get to the top with hard work, grit, and determination but you’re fooling yourself if you don’t realize that all the other teams ahead of them aren’t working just as hard or harder. I got to see the USWNT practice on Wednesday. The most impressive part of seeing it for me was the speed and intensity they practice with. Those women aren’t JUST super-talented. They worked harder in practice than any team I’ve ever seen. They're on the top but they work very hard to stay on top.

In select soccer I think you need to give weight to your kids’ goals and you need to be adaptable accordingly. Is she willing to always play the underdog role so she can stay with her friends? Does she want the chance to play at an even higher level? Those two goals may align sometimes but not all the time.

I say "if you can't beat 'em then a sharp shot to the liver should even things up."

Saintsdad02 I'm confused. I read in another post that you were looking for players for your team and that you were really the Saints DOC. If that's true then you don't personally have an '02 DD on your team. You don't even have a DD in your entire program. So why the fake post? Based on the scores posted from last weekend's tournament it seems like you have a pretty good '02 team so why bash a parent just because they choose to put their DD into a higher profile program for whatever the reason? And I disagree with your statement "If your (Dad's) objective is to get you on a winning team... then that's pretty easy." It's only easy if your DD is an incredible player. Otherwise it's pretty difficult (just ask all the parents on here with DD's that got cut from a top program.) Oh, and by the way, there are plenty of MOMS who want the shirt too!

bigtex75081 wrote:

Madmom wrote:What if you just want a new shirt that fits better?

Agreed.

Saints02Dad... The tone of your post makes it seem as though you take a great amount of pride in the t-shirt you're currently wearing. Your note also implies that this team's t-shirt just lost a couple players that are important to the squad. And your screen name implies that you DD is getting ready to sign her first contract in July.

Before tryouts come you may need to consider if the t-shirt you're currently wearing is still the right one. Will you stay there because you're dug in and want to make a statement? Or will you stay in that t-shirt because that's what your DD wants? Or is it time to look for a new t-shirt because the one you're currently wearing now has a couple big holes?

I believe Saints02Dad has taken the best position here. He has said what everyone else claims to be about, until they're not. I think what makes my skin crawl the most is the Dad that has a daughter on a D1,D2, or D3 team that is never satisfied with the efforts thier daughter made during a game. It could always be better, faster, stronger. Her eyes should've seen the girl making the run sooner, and so the only thing that makes sense is to find a better team or different coach. I think as the girls get older they will develop the skills and soccer awareness that enable them to see and react as fast as DAD sitting on the sideline without a ball at his feet. After another 6-7 years, I think there's going to be a lot of DADs on suicide watch when the US NATIONAL team isn't banging down thier doors, or DUKE, STANFORD, or ND isn't offering full rides. At least they will be able to frame all of the "SHIRTS" they collected over the years and think about what should've been.

smackthatpitchup wrote:Saintsdad02 I'm confused. I read in another post that you were looking for players for your team and that you were really the Saints DOC. If that's true then you don't personally have an '02 DD on your team. You don't even have a DD in your entire program. So why the fake post? Based on the scores posted from last weekend's tournament it seems like you have a pretty good '02 team so why bash a parent just because they choose to put their DD into a higher profile program for whatever the reason? And I disagree with your statement "If your (Dad's) objective is to get you on a winning team... then that's pretty easy." It's only easy if your DD is an incredible player. Otherwise it's pretty difficult (just ask all the parents on here with DD's that got cut from a top program.) Oh, and by the way, there are plenty of MOMS who want the shirt too!

So, this post made my head hurt. If I read it correctly, either "SMACKTHATPITCHUP" knows the DOC of the Saints pretty well, or we've all just been informed that a DOC can't spawn a child, and especially one within the Saints Club.

SaintsDad02 wrote:If your (Dad's) objective is to get you on a winning team... then that's pretty easy. Some Dad's even sign up their daughters to be on the taxi squad, just so Dad can wear the Shirt!
Unfortunately too many kids are taught to ride someone elses reputation. What kind of a (decent) life-lesson are we teaching our DD by trying to cut corners? What type of judgement do we teach about the value of "Earning" a reputation?

How about MAKING your own reputation from Nothing; Zero; Zilch? Boy, is it difficult to make something out of nothing! But, when it's done, you have something you OWN. It's yours and not someone else's - nobody can take it away from you! You may share it. But only your team-mates can know the real story -because you earned it together. You did not borrow it so it cannot be left behind.

The lessons taught through the hardship of working every step of the way to success and not cutting corners builds real citizens. Maybe I'm from the old-school, but I believe I am riding on the shoulders of people who avoided short-cuts.... I am glad I am with a Club that believes the same.... I know my DD will learn from all the Wins and Losses in the challenges she faces this season.... as the coaches and leadership at the club where she currently plays say: "the game is full of mistakes. Your job is to eliminate more mistakes than the opposition...". When we do that: We earn the ShirtSee you on the Pitch! My Shirt will never be borrowed!

I can see the point that you are making saintsdad but it sounds like you may be clouded with a little anger or dissappointment in someone. As a manager of a big club team, I too can relate to your feelings, people leave for many reasons and it may not be understandable to me, sometimes I see it worked for them and sometimes I am glad that I didnt make that mistake, but I have to believe they tried to do what they thought was best for their kid. I can only hope that your feelings expressed were expressed here and not directly towards someone because althought North Texas Soccer is huge it is truly a small world and you do not want to burn any bridges or lose friends if you can help it, you never know when all of your team may want to up and move to a big machine and they can give you a new shirt or you can stand on your pitch tattered and torn and watch them walk away.
It is not all about big and little riding on someones back or not. Everyone, everywhere rides on someones back and hardwork, that is often how progress is made in society! I dont know you, but I do know most of us do not own our own companies or our "own shirts" we probably work for a big machine that was formed off of someones hard work and we continue to do hard work to keep it running big and strong, meanwhile getting some of the benefits and security that only the big machines (companies or clubs) can give! That is what I feel the girls do and get in our club. They work hard to keep the clubs name on top or near the top as much as possible then the club because others have done well before us, turns around and gives us good facilities, highly qualified coaches and if needed several other teams to choose from within the club. It is admirable to build a team as you speak from ground up and go somewhere and it does teach many lessons. However, honestly, if we are truly doing our jobs as parentsthen we will listen to what our kids want to do and try to make that happen, hopefully we can quiet the little voices in our heads that may be pushing our kids towards something they dont want because we want to live through them. The parents dont always make moves because they want to, many and most times they do, but if we are listening to our kids we will know if they want to just play with friends or play at higher levels and then it is our job as parents to help make that happen, with any tools that are available! And as a Coach or manager it is not our place to judge!

Blah-Blah-Blah wrote:

smackthatpitchup wrote:Saintsdad02 I'm confused. I read in another post that you were looking for players for your team and that you were really the Saints DOC. If that's true then you don't personally have an '02 DD on your team. You don't even have a DD in your entire program. So why the fake post? Based on the scores posted from last weekend's tournament it seems like you have a pretty good '02 team so why bash a parent just because they choose to put their DD into a higher profile program for whatever the reason? And I disagree with your statement "If your (Dad's) objective is to get you on a winning team... then that's pretty easy." It's only easy if your DD is an incredible player. Otherwise it's pretty difficult (just ask all the parents on here with DD's that got cut from a top program.) Oh, and by the way, there are plenty of MOMS who want the shirt too!

So, this post made my head hurt. If I read it correctly, either "SMACKTHATPITCHUP" knows the DOC of the Saints pretty well, or we've all just been informed that a DOC can't spawn a child, and especially one within the Saints Club.

Blah...I'm sorry your head hurts. If you'd read my post I admitted I was confused because Saintsdad02 posted himself as the Saints DOC looking for players in another string yet claims to have a DD in this string. Now if it's true he is the DOC in disguise (I've already admitted my uncertainty) than yes, I do know who the Saints DOC is, but I don't have to be "close" to him to know. Aside from it being posted on their website (I just checked) my oldest had a couple friends that played for his program a few years ago and they always enjoyed it - my oldest just so you know could care less about soccer and hasn't played since the age of 8. And to be particular to your reply, I never claimed a DOC can't spawn a child, I said the Saints DOC didn't have a DD in the program (unless you're "CLOSE" to the program and can set me straight.) I'm sure he appreciates your support.

I took exception to the generalization of the original post because my '02DD wasn't blessed with natural skill like many of her teammates. She has worked very hard to become a good soccer player. Not because we've pushed her - school always comes first in our home, but because she truly enjoys the sport, the competition and most importantly to us, the camaraderie of her teammates. She's played on a few different teams, some good and some bad but we're thankful that someone from a high profile program thought she was good enough and asked her to come join. We weren't looking for it and it certainly wasn't about a jersey. As it's turned out, we're all very happy - as hard as it may be to believe that there are those of us in large programs who are happy with the way our DD's are being developed and not simply because of the logo on their chest.

Unfortunately both your original post and Saintsdad02's original post now come off as bitter, as others have pointed out, regardless of their original intent. I always find it sad when someone bashes any program (especially when there's a hidden agenda). There's no right or wrong program out there - just right and wrong programs for you and when you find the right one, celebrate your happiness.

smackthatpitchup wrote:

Blah-Blah-Blah wrote:

smackthatpitchup wrote:Saintsdad02 I'm confused. I read in another post that you were looking for players for your team and that you were really the Saints DOC. If that's true then you don't personally have an '02 DD on your team. You don't even have a DD in your entire program. So why the fake post? Based on the scores posted from last weekend's tournament it seems like you have a pretty good '02 team so why bash a parent just because they choose to put their DD into a higher profile program for whatever the reason? And I disagree with your statement "If your (Dad's) objective is to get you on a winning team... then that's pretty easy." It's only easy if your DD is an incredible player. Otherwise it's pretty difficult (just ask all the parents on here with DD's that got cut from a top program.) Oh, and by the way, there are plenty of MOMS who want the shirt too!

So, this post made my head hurt. If I read it correctly, either "SMACKTHATPITCHUP" knows the DOC of the Saints pretty well, or we've all just been informed that a DOC can't spawn a child, and especially one within the Saints Club.

Blah...I'm sorry your head hurts. If you'd read my post I admitted I was confused because Saintsdad02 posted himself as the Saints DOC looking for players in another string yet claims to have a DD in this string. Now if it's true he is the DOC in disguise (I've already admitted my uncertainty) than yes, I do know who the Saints DOC is, but I don't have to be "close" to him to know. Aside from it being posted on their website (I just checked) my oldest had a couple friends that played for his program a few years ago and they always enjoyed it - my oldest just so you know could care less about soccer and hasn't played since the age of 8. And to be particular to your reply, I never claimed a DOC can't spawn a child, I said the Saints DOC didn't have a DD in the program (unless you're "CLOSE" to the program and can set me straight.) I'm sure he appreciates your support.

I took exception to the generalization of the original post because my '02DD wasn't blessed with natural skill like many of her teammates. She has worked very hard to become a good soccer player. Not because we've pushed her - school always comes first in our home, but because she truly enjoys the sport, the competition and most importantly to us, the camaraderie of her teammates. She's played on a few different teams, some good and some bad but we're thankful that someone from a high profile program thought she was good enough and asked her to come join. We weren't looking for it and it certainly wasn't about a jersey. As it's turned out, we're all very happy - as hard as it may be to believe that there are those of us in large programs who are happy with the way our DD's are being developed and not simply because of the logo on their chest.

Unfortunately both your original post and Saintsdad02's original post now come off as bitter, as others have pointed out, regardless of their original intent. I always find it sad when someone bashes any program (especially when there's a hidden agenda). There's no right or wrong program out there - just right and wrong programs for you and when you find the right one, celebrate your happiness.

SMACK...Very well said. If the transfer of teams means adequate playing time and training from a good coach and more talant surrounding them, I'm all about it. Some will allow for a son/daughter to sit the bench on a better team and convince themselves that this is the type of environment they need to be in to convence the kid they have to work harder. Problem is, when Playing time doesn't workout the right way, the kids aren't having any fun. I think we can all agree that when we see our kids just playing in the backyard or with thier friends, we see them do things and wonder why they don't try that in the field. I think the look on thier faces will tell us why. Fun, Fun, Fun!!!

i am sorry saintsdd but for you to think that you are the only dedicated parent or that your the only DOC with passion for your small club! wake-up hard working dedicated parents and coaches are all over the north texas soccer land scape. If the shoe fits wear it, enjoy it, believe in it, but spare us to think you are the only one DD that works hard and is dedicated to play for all the right reasons.

SaintsDad02 wrote:If your (Dad's) objective is to get you on a winning team... then that's pretty easy. Some Dad's even sign up their daughters to be on the taxi squad, just so Dad can wear the Shirt!

Unfortunately too many kids are taught to ride someone elses reputation. What kind of a (decent) life-lesson are we teaching our DD by trying to cut corners? What type of judgement do we teach about the value of "Earning" a reputation?

How about MAKING your own reputation from Nothing; Zero; Zilch? Boy, is it difficult to make something out of nothing! But, when it's done, you have something you OWN. It's yours and not someone else's - nobody can take it away from you! You may share it. But only your team-mates can know the real story -because you earned it together. You did not borrow it so it cannot be left behind.

The lessons taught through the hardship of working every step of the way to success and not cutting corners builds real citizens. Maybe I'm from the old-school, but I believe I am riding on the shoulders of people who avoided short-cuts.... I am glad I am with a Club that believes the same.... I know my DD will learn from all the Wins and Losses in the challenges she faces this season.... as the coaches and leadership at the club where she currently plays say: "the game is full of mistakes. Your job is to eliminate more mistakes than the opposition...". When we do that: We earn the Shirt
See you on the Pitch! My Shirt will never be borrowed!

This is funny and sad all at the same time for 2 reasons:
1. SaintsDad doesn't have a DD on the 02 team
and 2. You just cut corners by recruiting Fever Black over to the Saints and then dumped many of those hard workng players that were trying ot "earn" their reputation...

Doesn't really sound like you are trying to "earn" much if you ask me, sounds quite hypocritical actually

This is funny and sad all at the same time for 2 reasons:
1. SaintsDad doesn't have a DD on the 02 team
and 2. You just cut corners by recruiting Fever Black over to the Saints and then dumped many of those hard workng players that were trying ot "earn" their reputation...

Doesn't really sound like you are trying to "earn" much if you ask me, sounds quite hypocritical actually [/quote]

Absolutely right!
1. SaintsDad02 IS the DOC and does NOT have a DD anywhere near this age!!!
2. Dedicated and hardworking players were pushed out to make room for the new "elite" players. Doesn't sound like a dedicated club looking out for the best interest of the girls, but rather a dedicated DOC looking out for the best interest of his club....which isn't necessarily bad for the club, just not straightforward to the parents and players.

Statements like the original post seeth with "drama" that SaintsDad also says doesn't exist in his club.

Speaking from personal experience with your club, there is no question why your organization has so much turnover. It is without merit that you accuse those who left: "just so dad can wear the shirt". Perhaps the parents that move their DD are in search of a different coaching style, one that focus' on individual and team development, continuous skill work, a controlled possession style of play vs. kickball, postiive reinforcement after a game (win or lose!), etc... Not until recently has there been any consistency and stability in your coaching staff. These are all factors that parents strongly consider when joining and/or leaving a team. Us as parents invest emotionally and financially into ensuring our DD's are with a club that we feel is a good fit for them : training, development, teamwork, having fun and learning to play the game of soccer the way it is meant to be played. Parents are looking for these as a return on their investment, and this Saints DOC, comes in many different "shirt" colors and sizes.

Some of y'all are too darn funny, or maybe misinformed(disillusioned) is a better word. Not one person was pushed out or asked to leave. Two teams were created for different skill levels with the influx of new players, who by the way were not recruited, rather looking for a different opportunity from the academies where they were.

With the opportunity to bring more girls it created more opportunities, not less. This is also an age when some decide that another sport or activity they are participating in is what they want to do before they make a bigger commitment to the club at the end of this season. i know of at least one that left for this reason. A few may have thought their dd deserved to be on the higher skilled team simply because they had been with the academy longer than the new girls. Guess what, better internal competition should help make everyone better. If anyone left for that reason, then guess what, when their dd gets passed by a higher skilled player at the next club they'll just look for another club to join.

02 Saints Dad wrote:Some of y'all are too darn funny, or maybe misinformed(disillusioned) is a better word. Not one person was pushed out or asked to leave. Two teams were created for different skill levels with the influx of new players, who by the way were not recruited, rather looking for a different opportunity from the academies where they were.

With the opportunity to bring more girls it created more opportunities, not less. This is also an age when some decide that another sport or activity they are participating in is what they want to do before they make a bigger commitment to the club at the end of this season. i know of at least one that left for this reason. A few may have thought their dd deserved to be on the higher skilled team simply because they had been with the academy longer than the new girls. Guess what, better internal competition should help make everyone better. If anyone left for that reason, then guess what, when their dd gets passed by a higher skilled player at the next club they'll just look for another club to join.

The point of the original SaintsDad/DOC post is STAY LOYAL no matter what. The point of this last Saints Dad post seems to be "welcome to competitive sports - if a better player comes along, you will be replaced". While true, neither post has done much to enhance or differentiate an outsider's perspective of the Saints club. I read it as "its just another club trying to be competitive and make money" and parents should be nimble in finding the right team at whatever club that fits well for their DD before signing up come select contract day. Did I miss something in this thread that says "why you should stay with or join the Saints (hints, include things like here is what we teach, were is how we develop, here is our philosophy, here is our track record)" SaintsDad/DOC, you might put yourself in the shoes of the parents of DDs when you try to sell your program. But when you read all this, it just seems to be internal laundry aiming at internal people anyway.

I bought a tshirt after i read this thread

Java, not sure what your affiliation is, but no one on here seems to really understand the Saints. I guess that's because they've always kept a fairly low profile. We joined the club after careful consideration over a period of several weeks, due to many reasons: organization and structure, better coaching, instruction and development, and probably more importantly, they made our daughter, and us feel like a part of the family. We came from a club where there was drama and a controlling "click".

Until this thread there has been no drama. There is no drama inside the club at all other than here in this single thread. I myself am unsure why the original post was intended.

I think you also missed my earlier point. Even though some talented new players joined the club, no one wanted anyone to leave. This actually gave more players a chance to get playing time by having two teams at two different skill levels, thus creating chances to move up. This is competitive soccer, and don't kid yourself if any other club out there had a highly skilled player take a look at their program, then when they join, someone is going to lose playing time. If that kid had mad skills superior to your child or my child, then guess what they are replaceable. There was a plan to take care of every single player.

And just so you know,this isn't the club that's out there just to make money, if you knew the DOC at all, then you wouldn't make that comment.