Tournament Fee Question

Okay, I am reletively new to the club arena and I have a question for those with more experience than me. It's the end of the season and until now I never questioned anything, but something about this struck me as odd.

My dd's club wants to do a tournament next month. E-mails went out on Monday changing tournament venue and requests that all parents pay X dollars no later than this Thursday, and to please keep in mind that not everyone is being asked to go. Since the parent list did indeed look short and the fee high, I went to the tournament website to see the fee schedule. According to my math, the fees we are being asked to pay divides the tourney fee by only 10 players. I asked Team Manager how many we were planning to bring since the fee is only divided amoung 10 girls. The answer: 13... of a 17 member team. Tournament rules allow for 5 guest players, so I understood the reason 4 were not asked to attend. However, the reason for only 10 paying (and the root of my question) was this: it is "customary to pay coaches for meals and travel to tournaments” which just so happens to be equal to the exact total of 3 non-paying players.

So, not only are we footing the bill for 5 guest players, but 3 non-playing players under the guise of coaches meals and travel. Please keep in mind that both coaches (and team manager) have daughters on the team and would have to be there regardless.

Since I never thought to question tournament costs before, I don't know if this has been happening all along. But...is this a customary practice in the club arena?

I'm sure I'll catch hell for this. So far, we have been very happy with this team and we like the coaches and team manager, but I'm just curious if this really is a standard practice out there.

4eversoccer wrote:Okay, I am reletively new to the club arena and I have a question for those with more experience than me. It's the end of the season and until now I never questioned anything, but something about this struck me as odd.

My dd's club wants to do a tournament next month. E-mails went out on Monday changing tournament venue and requests that all parents pay X dollars no later than this Thursday, and to please keep in mind that not everyone is being asked to go. Since the parent list did indeed look short and the fee high, I went to the tournament website to see the fee schedule. According to my math, the fees we are being asked to pay divides the tourney fee by only 10 players. I asked Team Manager how many we were planning to bring since the fee is only divided amoung 10 girls. The answer: 13... of a 17 member team. Tournament rules allow for 5 guest players, so I understood the reason 4 were not asked to attend. However, the reason for only 10 paying (and the root of my question) was this: it is "customary to pay coaches for meals and travel to tournaments” which just so happens to be equal to the exact total of 3 non-paying players.

So, not only are we footing the bill for 5 guest players, but 3 non-playing players under the guise of coaches meals and travel. Please keep in mind that both coaches (and team manager) have daughters on the team and would have to be there regardless.

Since I never thought to question tournament costs before, I don't know if this has been happening all along. But...is this a customary practice in the club arena?

I'm sure I'll catch hell for this. So far, we have been very happy with this team and we like the coaches and team manager, but I'm just curious if this really is a standard practice out there.

so two coaches have a kid on the team, and the manager has a kid on the team?

That's three players right there. Sounds like they are wanting the rest of the team to foot the bill for the tournament so they don't have to pay.

In the past, whether a player was going to a tournament or not, the entire team had to pay for the tourney. Guest players are typically not expected to pay. So if there are 17 on the team, the bill should be split 17 ways and each family pay. If players are leaving the team and that's why they are not playing in the tourney, good luck on collecting, so maybe they decided not to bother. But the coaches kids and the managers kid should still pay.

golgolgol wrote:

4eversoccer wrote:Okay, I am reletively new to the club arena and I have a question for those with more experience than me. It's the end of the season and until now I never questioned anything, but something about this struck me as odd.

My dd's club wants to do a tournament next month. E-mails went out on Monday changing tournament venue and requests that all parents pay X dollars no later than this Thursday, and to please keep in mind that not everyone is being asked to go. Since the parent list did indeed look short and the fee high, I went to the tournament website to see the fee schedule. According to my math, the fees we are being asked to pay divides the tourney fee by only 10 players. I asked Team Manager how many we were planning to bring since the fee is only divided amoung 10 girls. The answer: 13... of a 17 member team. Tournament rules allow for 5 guest players, so I understood the reason 4 were not asked to attend. However, the reason for only 10 paying (and the root of my question) was this: it is "customary to pay coaches for meals and travel to tournaments” which just so happens to be equal to the exact total of 3 non-paying players.

So, not only are we footing the bill for 5 guest players, but 3 non-playing players under the guise of coaches meals and travel. Please keep in mind that both coaches (and team manager) have daughters on the team and would have to be there regardless.

Since I never thought to question tournament costs before, I don't know if this has been happening all along. But...is this a customary practice in the club arena?

I'm sure I'll catch hell for this. So far, we have been very happy with this team and we like the coaches and team manager, but I'm just curious if this really is a standard practice out there.

so two coaches have a kid on the team, and the manager has a kid on the team?

That's three players right there. Sounds like they are wanting the rest of the team to foot the bill for the tournament so they don't have to pay.

In the past, whether a player was going to a tournament or not, the entire team had to pay for the tourney. Guest players are typically not expected to pay. So if there are 17 on the team, the bill should be split 17 ways and each family pay. If players are leaving the team and that's why they are not playing in the tourney, good luck on collecting, so maybe they decided not to bother. But the coaches kids and the managers kid should still pay.

At the end of the year, when you are essentially cutting players by not inviting them to return, its foolish to try figure them into the cost of a tournament they won't attend. The cost should be spread across the number of team members that have been invited to attend. If they have made it clear they are not returning, the same is true, the team shouldn't end up with a deficit to make a point of assessing cost to a departing player. Attempting to collect would be futile.

It is not unusual to forgo the guests in the expense of the tournament fees.

Coaches travel and expenses are usually covered, so I'm not sure whether that is a "guise" as you suggest. The manager's are not. Often even scholarship players pick up this expense, but not always. Coach and manager's dd's should pay the same portion as any other player.

Everything I'm writing here is pure speculation because I do not know the details of this situation.

IMO...
1. The guest players shouldn't pay the tournament fee.
2. The rostered players that are not attending because they haven't been invited to return shouldn't pay the tournament fee.
3. The rostered players that are attending should pay the tournament fee and the coaches travel expenses.
4. The player that is the DD of the manager should pay the tournament fee unless there was a stated agreement between the team and the families in the budget for this as a "Thank you" for services rendered. (More than likely though, that family is already seeing savings elsewhere like in reduced dues.)
5. The players that are the DDs of the coaches should pay the tournament fee.

It's the last bullet that irks me because, if they do not pay like everyone else, the coaches are really using this new fee as a way to supplement their income. (By not spending money that they receive benefits from, that's bonus $$$.)

The only way that last bullet is acceptable to me is if the coaches waived their salary for the past year. Did they waive their salaries? If so, then you should help them out as a thank you. If not, they're just using the families to squeeze a little more money out of you all.

After that, I would start checking all the numbers. The DDs of the coaches are probably scholarshipped. That means that the savings these coaches see have been expanding their income with every expense your team has incurred. (Unless, of course, these coaches have waived their salaries.) They both basically gave themselves an under-the-table $2000-$3000 raise by not paying any fees for the entire year.

bigtex75081 wrote:IMO...
1. The guest players shouldn't pay the tournament fee.
2. The rostered players that are not attending because they haven't been invited to return shouldn't pay the tournament fee.
3. The rostered players that are attending should pay the tournament fee and the coaches travel expenses.
4. The player that is the DD of the manager should pay the tournament fee unless there was a stated agreement between the team and the families in the budget for this as a "Thank you" for services rendered. (More than likely though, that family is already seeing savings elsewhere like in reduced dues.)
5. The players that are the DDs of the coaches should pay the tournament fee.

It's the last buller that irks me because, if they do not pay like everyone else, the coaches are really using this new fee as a way to supplement their income. (By not spending money that they receive benefits from, that's bonus $$$.)

The only way that last bullet is acceptable to me is if the coaches waived their salary for the past year. Did they waive their salary? If so, then you should help them out as a thank you. If not, their just using the families to squeeze a little more money out of you all.

I've heard that some clubs give some sort of a discount for the manager's kid. I don't think most do. I think on most clubs the manager's kid is just like any other kid. Any other shared costs that are team supported (as opposed to the club) should be disclosed. If the club is providing some sort of discount to the manager (as I say I don't think that is the norm), that's between the club and the manager, since none of that discount/cost is supported by the rest of the team.

As so often happens here, though, someone automatically makes the jump to "coach and/or club" is trying to screw them somehow.

Understanding how costs are calculated are legitimate concerns, and if the manager is worth a crap, he/she should be able to explain to any parent how they calculated the share, and the shares should be tournament fees plus coach expense divided by the number of team players invited to participate. Its really simple.

If they don't want to explain it, it likely points out that there may be a problem.

That will do one of two things:

• show the poster that perhaps his "rough calculation" of the shares is a little off, or

• show the manager that people watch this sort of thing and help things stay square in the future.

Before you hang the guy for trying to "squeeze a little more money out of you all", I'd attempt to find out if that's what he's doing.

I know I'm probably really dumb for this, but I am the manager of a team and have two dds on it and don't get a scholarship. I pay all tournament fees and other expenses. The fees should be split between all the girls playing in the tournament but not guest players. I try to collect early enough where players leaving etc are not an issue. But I have explained it to people this way. You are a part of this team until July 1st. If you are guest playing on another team, you shouldn't be paying for the fee so it's a wash so to speak. If you don't collect early enough, though as stated by others, it can be difficult to get $ from those leaving. Just easier to collect from those committed to the team. Hopefully it's not that many tournaments.

The point is now moot. My DD has been let go and this post was a direct reference in the e-mail from the coach, among other accusations. Parents, be careful what or how you ask questions.

Lesson learned.

4eversoccer wrote:The point is now moot. My DD has been let go and this post was a direct reference in the e-mail from the coach, among other accusations. Parents, be careful what or how you ask questions.

Lesson learned.

Wow. Very childish of the coach and sounds like there was something to be suspicious of.

Please let us know what team/club this was to help someone avoid mistreatment in the future.

golgolgol wrote:

4eversoccer wrote:The point is now moot. My DD has been let go and this post was a direct reference in the e-mail from the coach, among other accusations. Parents, be careful what or how you ask questions.

Lesson learned.

Wow. Very childish of the coach and sounds like there was something to be suspicious of.

Please let us know what team/club this was to help someone avoid mistreatment in the future.

If that's true, then you were with the wrong team. Consider being let go a blessing rather than a lesson learned. Now you can find a happier place.

geno105 wrote:

golgolgol wrote:

4eversoccer wrote:The point is now moot. My DD has been let go and this post was a direct reference in the e-mail from the coach, among other accusations. Parents, be careful what or how you ask questions.

Lesson learned.

Wow. Very childish of the coach and sounds like there was something to be suspicious of.

Please let us know what team/club this was to help someone avoid mistreatment in the future.

If that's true, then you were with the wrong team. Consider being let go a blessing rather than a lesson learned. Now you can find a happier place.

Yep, sounds to me like you were getting too close to finding out something they didn't want discovered. Unfortunately, I've been in a situation (team treasurer) where I was instructed by the coach to not divulge any financial information, including updates on the player's individual account status, to anyone. Was told "if someone wants to know, tell them to come see me". We left the team the next year.

Muffin Man wrote:

geno105 wrote:

golgolgol wrote:

4eversoccer wrote:The point is now moot. My DD has been let go and this post was a direct reference in the e-mail from the coach, among other accusations. Parents, be careful what or how you ask questions.

Lesson learned.

Wow. Very childish of the coach and sounds like there was something to be suspicious of.

Please let us know what team/club this was to help someone avoid mistreatment in the future.

If that's true, then you were with the wrong team. Consider being let go a blessing rather than a lesson learned. Now you can find a happier place.

Yep, sounds to me like you were getting too close to finding out something they didn't want discovered. Unfortunately, I've been in a situation (team treasurer) where I was instructed by the coach to not divulge any financial information, including updates on the player's individual account status, to anyone. Was told "if someone wants to know, tell them to come see me". We left the team the next year.

It's disappointing to hear that the option to return is no longer available to your DD. I agree with the three responses immediately above though. It sounds like this coach wasn't invested in your DD. It also sounds like the coach didn't want people asking questions about the way he manages the team.

Fortunately this happened sooner rather than later. Would you really want to give more money to somebody you don't trust? Now that you know, and there's a lot of time before any new commitments need to be made, you can start pursuing a better fit for your DD.

Shop smart. Find a better coach that is honest and invested in your DD's success.

4eversoccer wrote:The point is now moot. My DD has been let go and this post was a direct reference in the e-mail from the coach, among other accusations. Parents, be careful what or how you ask questions.

Lesson learned.

Wow, that coach sounds like a joke. You never even named the team or coach on this forum.
At this point you should let us know what team this is so others can be warned.

4eversoccer wrote:The point is now moot. My DD has been let go and this post was a direct reference in the e-mail from the coach, among other accusations. Parents, be careful what or how you ask questions.

Lesson learned.

Time to out the coach, team and club. Prevent others from getting hosed by these jokers.

Sorry to hear this about your DD. We had an ironclad rule in our house to never play on a team coached by one of the player's parent. It was to prevent other things, but never really saw something like this happening.

4eversoccer wrote:The point is now moot. My DD has been let go and this post was a direct reference in the e-mail from the coach, among other accusations. Parents, be careful what or how you ask questions.

Lesson learned.

Not that it will provide any consolation at this point, but your question was likely not the root cause of your dd being cut. It became a convenient excuse to put the responsibility on something you did.

Your question was a legitimate one, although it can create a bad situation when asked on a board like this and then people start making the accusations that the coach and manager are trying to screw the team.

Not your fault at all, and the coach was incredibly wrong, in my opinion, to offer it up as a reason for cutting your daughter. Your post didn't make any accusations or inferences, that came from others.

I don't know whether or not there was anything nefarious going on, but no one likes to be called a thief, so sometimes, unless you're assured of your anonymity, this isn't the always the best place to ask such a question. A good manager will answer your query without issue or attitude.

Take solace in the fact that this wasn't the right team for your dd.

Players that are officially on your club team roster cannot be told "sorry we are not inviting you to the tournamenmt" That is an infringement of North Texas rules. So if any want to bring sanctions I would give North Texas a call
Edit to also say you cannot be told "sorry but weve let you go" The soccer year contract works both ways for the coach and player and the coach/team has no right to terminate the contract before June 30th. They also cannot stop you from practicing with the team!

Triumph FC wrote:Players that are officially on your club team roster cannot be told "sorry we are not inviting you to the tournamenmt" That is an infringement of North Texas rules. So if any want to bring sanctions I would give North Texas a call
Edit to also say you cannot be told "sorry but weve let you go" The soccer year contract works both ways for the coach and player and the coach/team has no right to terminate the contract before June 30th. They also cannot stop you from practicing with the team!

True, I believe the assumption the poster's dd is playing academy and not select.

Texdad wrote:

4eversoccer wrote:The point is now moot. My DD has been let go and this post was a direct reference in the e-mail from the coach, among other accusations. Parents, be careful what or how you ask questions.

Lesson learned.

Wow, that coach sounds like a joke. You never even named the team or coach on this forum.
At this point you should let us know what team this is so others can be warned.

Expose these folks.....this is your platform!

@ inthenet - you are correct. Posting on here did not help the situation, and was not appreciated. This was made clear when I was told "Having an issue or questions and bringing them up is one thing. Doing it the way you did only fosters dissension. It may have been forgivable if it had been left at that. Unfortunately, you chose to blog this issue and invite the entire metroplex to get involved (there is no anonymity). Right or wrong, your approach is unforgivable and I won't allow your pettiness on the team."

@ newtothis - my daughter is a select player, not academy.

To the many who've asked me to expose them, I've thought about it and am angry enough to do so, but it would only prove the coach right...that I am "what I (he) suspected you (I) were capable of in the first place."

I have not mentioned the club, the team, the coach, the manager, or even the age group. Whether or not I handled this the right way no longer matters. My character and integrity was assassinated by the coach when my e-mail directly to our team manager was forwarded to both coaches, the Club Director and his wife (also a team manager). The curteous and professional explaination i was looking for did come from the other team manager, but it was too late. By then, many hurtful things were said, and my daughter was told she will never play for them again. I can't fault the club, as I said, we were happy there and my daughter wanted to return.

inthenet wrote:

4eversoccer wrote:The point is now moot. My DD has been let go and this post was a direct reference in the e-mail from the coach, among other accusations. Parents, be careful what or how you ask questions.

Lesson learned.

Not that it will provide any consolation at this point, but your question was likely not the root cause of your dd being cut. It became a convenient excuse to put the responsibility on something you did.

Your question was a legitimate one, although it can create a bad situation when asked on a board like this and then people start making the accusations that the coach and manager are trying to screw the team.

Not your fault at all, and the coach was incredibly wrong, in my opinion, to offer it up as a reason for cutting your daughter. Your post didn't make any accusations or inferences, that came from others.

I don't know whether or not there was anything nefarious going on, but no one likes to be called a thief, so sometimes, unless you're assured of your anonymity, this isn't the always the best place to ask such a question. A good manager will answer your query without issue or attitude.

Take solace in the fact that this wasn't the right team for your dd.

Winning!

4eversoccer wrote:
I have not mentioned the club, the team, the coach, the manager, or even the age group. Whether or not I handled this the right way no longer matters. My character and integrity was assassinated by the coach when my e-mail directly to our team manager was forwarded to both coaches, the Club Director and his wife (also a team manager). The curteous and professional explaination i was looking for did come from the other team manager, but it was too late. By then, many hurtful things were said, and my daughter was told she will never play for them again. I can't fault the club, as I said, we were happy there and my daughter wanted to return.

Winning!

4eversoccer wrote:@ inthenet - you are correct. Posting on here did not help the situation, and was not appreciated. This was made clear when I was told "Having an issue or questions and bringing them up is one thing. Doing it the way you did only fosters dissension. It may have been forgivable if it had been left at that. Unfortunately, you chose to blog this issue and invite the entire metroplex to get involved (there is no anonymity). Right or wrong, your approach is unforgivable and I won't allow your pettiness on the team."

@ newtothis - my daughter is a select player, not academy.

To the many who've asked me to expose them, I've thought about it and am angry enough to do so, but it would only prove the coach right...that I am "what I (he) suspected you (I) were capable of in the first place."

I have not mentioned the club, the team, the coach, the manager, or even the age group. Whether or not I handled this the right way no longer matters. My character and integrity was assassinated by the coach when my e-mail directly to our team manager was forwarded to both coaches, the Club Director and his wife (also a team manager). The curteous and professional explaination i was looking for did come from the other team manager, but it was too late. By then, many hurtful things were said, and my daughter was told she will never play for them again. I can't fault the club, as I said, we were happy there and my daughter wanted to return.

I think everyone can understand your concerns and desire to take the high road. I personally don't believe your original post was negative or voiced in an accusatory tone, you were simply asking for input regarding a specific situation without exposing any team, club, or coach. However, as mentioned by someone earlier as a select player you and the other players not "invited" to the tournament do have a contract and contracts are a 2 way street. You might consider getting with the other non-invited players and filing a greivance with NTX soccer. If the coach is, for all intents and purposes, cutting players prior to June 30 he is violating several NTX soccer and USYSA bylaws. As for saying who this coach and club are I won't try and tell you what you should do (honestly not sure what I would do) but a coach like this and a club that would support such a coach need to be exposed to save other players from getting involved in this situation. Don't think a coach should have his own child on his team above the rec level as it is a conflict of interest, but that is a different discussion

The coach cannot just void the contract at his discretion. If the coach is refusing to provide you a service that he’s contractually obligated to provide... Shouldn't he give you a refund? At least shouldn’t he return to you a prorated portion of the fees for the time still outstanding on the contract?

I think everyone can understand your concerns and desire to take the high road. I personally don't believe your original post was negative or voiced in an accusatory tone, you were simply asking for input regarding a specific situation without exposing any team, club, or coach. However, as mentioned by someone earlier as a select player you and the other players not "invited" to the tournament do have a contract and contracts are a 2 way street. You might consider getting with the other non-invited players and filing a greivance with NTX soccer. If the coach is, for all intents and purposes, cutting players prior to June 30 he is violating several NTX soccer and USYSA bylaws. As for saying who this coach and club are I won't try and tell you what you should do (honestly not sure what I would do) but a coach like this and a club that would support such a coach need to be exposed to save other players from getting involved in this situation. Don't think a coach should have his own child on his team above the rec level as it is a conflict of interest, but that is a different discussion

To clarify, my daughter was one of the members chosen to go to both tournaments in May and June - she was a keeper. I was unaware that the coach had any grievances with me personally until this happened. I do not believe her position on the team was in question until I made this post. I believed this forum was to share observations, opinions and information. I didn't know posting could jeopardize her position or contract renawal.

I too just assumed, based on the scenario described, that this was academy, where (although wrong) seemed to jive with the usual academy shenanigans.

Select! This is a big deal on a number of levels. This has to be a small club. I don't see any of the larger ops, even with all their power, bringing this kind of liability into their house.