Re: What is the best formation for our small fields in north texas

by JustaSport 14/10/13, 06:35 pm

4-3-3, are you really just that much of a moron that written facetiousness completely escapes you? If you don't have something knowledgeable or at least witty to add, why even post other that to read your own drivel?

by Guest 14/10/13, 07:02 pm

JustaSport wrote:4-3-3, are you really just that much of a moron that written facetiousness completely escapes you? If you don't have something knowledgeable or at least witty to add, why even post other that to read your own drivel?

Written facetiousness? Weak arse sarcasm works just as well.

You still didnt address why your arguments change with the wind. Be consistent. I'd love to find out which club employs your services as a coach.

by JustaSport 14/10/13, 09:50 pm

4-3-3 wrote:
JustaSport wrote:4-3-3, are you really just that much of a moron that written facetiousness completely escapes you? If you don't have something knowledgeable or at least witty to add, why even post other that to read your own drivel?
Written facetiousness? Weak arse sarcasm works just as well.

You still didnt address why your arguments change with the wind. Be consistent. I'd love to find out which club employs your services as a coach.

It's unfortunate that your only knowledge of the game comes from watching your daughter's soccer practices and games. There's much more to it than monkey-in-the-middle, stepovers, and 100 juggles in a row. If you knew that, you would have added something useful to a discussion about formations given that your user name is "4-3-3". Just another poseur parent who would do himself well to pick up a copy of 'Soccer for Dummies'.

I think my points were fairly clear for the average literate individual. I've not seen a young team play a 4-5-1 well, there are other formations I do like for various reasons, a coach should go with the methodology that works for his team, etc. All simply matters of opinion and not shooting anyone down for disagreeing with me. Or using Old English words from 'The Canterbury Tales' like arse. (Sorry, 4-3-3, you're out of your league on multiple levels).

The joke - which at least Lawnboy gets - is that so many who pretend to be students of the game don't appreciate the technical ability required for a defender to look up, see that his forward at the opposite end of the field has 15 yards of space, and place a kick that puts the ball right on the foot of that player. That's a skill. So would it have been wiser for the defender to have ignored the opportunity and instead have made a 10 yard pass to the closest teammate in his vicinity? Why would the first scenario be "dump and chase" while the second is "possession" if both plays resulted in finding the intended target? For people like you, any kick higher than 3 feet in the air is treated as developmentally deficient.

And as I wrote, if a long pass in the air is ALWAYS bad, why is a dump-and-a prayer such as a goal kick, keeper punt, or corner kick considered okay? Shouldn't these kicks always be short passes to teammates if possession is the true goal?

by Guest 14/10/13, 09:58 pm

answer: 1 player to kick it hard. 1 player to go and get it. there are others?

by Guest 14/10/13, 10:46 pm

JustaSport wrote:
4-3-3 wrote:
JustaSport wrote:4-3-3, are you really just that much of a moron that written facetiousness completely escapes you? If you don't have something knowledgeable or at least witty to add, why even post other that to read your own drivel?
Written facetiousness? Weak arse sarcasm works just as well.

You still didnt address why your arguments change with the wind. Be consistent. I'd love to find out which club employs your services as a coach.
It's unfortunate that your only knowledge of the game comes from watching your daughter's soccer practices and games. There's much more to it than monkey-in-the-middle, stepovers, and 100 juggles in a row. If you knew that, you would have added something useful to a discussion about formations given that your user name is "4-3-3". Just another poseur parent who would do himself well to pick up a copy of 'Soccer for Dummies'.

I think my points were fairly clear for the average literate individual. I've not seen a young team play a 4-5-1 well, there are other formations I do like for various reasons, a coach should go with the methodology that works for his team, etc. All simply matters of opinion and not shooting anyone down for disagreeing with me. Or using Old English words from 'The Canterbury Tales' like arse. (Sorry, 4-3-3, you're out of your league on multiple levels).

The joke - which at least Lawnboy gets - is that so many who pretend to be students of the game don't appreciate the technical ability required for a defender to look up, see that his forward at the opposite end of the field has 15 yards of space, and place a kick that puts the ball right on the foot of that player. That's a skill. So would it have been wiser for the defender to have ignored the opportunity and instead have made a 10 yard pass to the closest teammate in his vicinity? Why would the first scenario be "dump and chase" while the second is "possession" if both plays resulted in finding the intended target? For people like you, any kick higher than 3 feet in the air is treated as developmentally deficient.

And as I wrote, if a long pass in the air is ALWAYS bad, why is a dump-and-a prayer such as a goal kick, keeper punt, or corner kick considered okay? Shouldn't these kicks always be short passes to teammates if possession is the true goal?

I'm out of my league, but you haven't EVER seen a select team effectively play a 4-5-1?
Ever? When I tell you I have seen it done poorly and done well, in multiple age groups, including the '01s, does that mean you're out of your league?

You take too much liberty with your assumptions. You've made assumptions about my knowledge of the game, which honestly aren't worth a response. But you assume because you haven't seen a team "look good" with a formation, must be no one does. Only thing a team with the lone forward can do is play long ball over the top?

I've suggested to you previously get out and watch some other levels of play...might want to give that a shot before making these sweeping generalizations.

And I can respect Lawnboy. He's been carrying water for the "possession is over rated" crowd for years. He is consistent. You on the other hand....just tried to piggyback Lawnboy without being sharp enough to realize you contradicted yourself.

This dim bulb nature of your logic, along with the silly generalizations, has me starting to question whether you're a professional coach, as in people actually pay you to train their children.

Which club is it again that you work for?

by a-nonny-moose 15/10/13, 09:13 am

4-3-3 and Justa

I have been watching your back and forth rhetoric and find it very amusing. Both of you have good points, and both seem to be driven by a philosophical paradim from which you make your points. These are geographically driven: the English (European) style vs Brazilian (South American) style of soccer.

Long ball with 1 intended "high" target---this ideology is from the English school of soccer. Most English teams will play with one high target player, and the intent is to penetrate quickly with balls played into open spaces of either side of the target (forward). This is typically done through the outside backs, and quickly on a counter-attack. English teams tend to put very talented players at the marking back positions, and these players are taught to transition quickly with flighted balls to their lone forward. The midfield fills in as support. If the ball is played into the space towards the corner flag, target chases and trys to serve a ball into the box to the flood of trailing midfield players (with a spinkling of defensive players). I played for English coaches, and they used this philosophy. (Not all English trained coaches, but most).

Short pass, (Bee Hive), triangles and diamonds, posession is typically the philosophy of South American futbol. They teach a linking system of players (traditionall playing in triangles and diamond shapes) to create multiple options for players all over the field. They tend to make sure that when each player has the ball at their feet, they have two short pass options and one longer pass option. Passes longer than 30 yards are discouraged, and the intent is to quickly move the ball through players, causing the other team to begin to chase the ball. They will wear down the opponent, then capitalize on mistakes later in the game. I have also gone through training at the Brazile Futbol Academy, and was taught this style of play as well. (Again, not all, but MOST).

Both styles have their merit and their flaws. I think that US soccer has tried to combine both philosophies to create their own style---US style soccer----

Sorry for the spelling issues....trying to type too fast and no time to proof read.

by JustaSport 15/10/13, 09:24 am

Nonny-Moose, you presented valid information. What a concept on a thread relative to the subject. I noticed, however, you were careful not to interject your own opinions on which style you prefer. Smart thinking. Had you done so, 4-3-3 might have included you on his stalking list. I suspect that even now, he's combing through the practice schedules of every team trying to figure out who I am so he can continue his argument in person. Creepy.

by Guest 15/10/13, 11:29 am

JustaSport wrote:Nonny-Moose, you presented valid information. What a concept on a thread relative to the subject. I noticed, however, you were careful not to interject your own opinions on which style you prefer. Smart thinking. Had you done so, 4-3-3 might have included you on his stalking list. I suspect that even now, he's combing through the practice schedules of every team trying to figure out who I am so he can continue his argument in person. Creepy.

I keep asking who you coach for because I think you're likely a fraud and not a paid coach.

Maybe you coach a PSA or rec team for free, but your demeanor and comments aren't consistent with professional coaches in this area. You got on my ahole list because you've called out other coaches / teams in the past, something paid coaches rarely do, and certainly not in public on a parent forum. I figured it's worth calling you out, and I notice you still haven't owned up to being a club coach.

I've no interest whatsoever in meeting you in person...LOL...I've seen all I need to know standing next to you all at D3 qualifying listening to your classy bunch yelling how the other team is playing kickball when your kids never put 3 passes together and sent all the same boot balls back the other way.

Nonny-Moose yes those are the classic descriptions of styles. The game has changed now and styles are not consistent within continents anymore. Top English teams may use a target foward, but they're still playing through their midfields who are often foreign players. Brazil spent years trying to play a european style and are just now beginning to play like the south american squads of old. European teams are leading the way right now in breaking the aura of tiki-taka invincibility with a balanced approach of penetrating short and long.

I don't care about long or short....I prefer to see youth teams have enough technical ability to keep the ball. Short or long, doesn't matter. Possession is not only playing short passes, it's playing high percentage passes and having the technical ability and soccer IQ to string them together.

My preference is not based on some snobbish possession dogma, the point is in their youth, we want technical development for players...maximum touches, maximum decision making opportunities, maximum receiving, turning, dribbling and passing opportunities. It's hard to get that if the majority of your games are jump headers fighting for 50:50 aerial balls back and forth. A pro team playing that way as a tactic to take advantage of a height or speed mismatch is one thing. They're pros already. Youth teams doing it consistently is shortchanging development of the players. Teams that do it have to continually cut and replace to find bigger/faster/stronger players because once the physical advantage erodes there is nothing left to their game. My DD is a U13 and I'm seeing it play out right now as we speak. As the physicality equalizes, the teams that can keep the ball are doing well, the teams that historically relied on counter attacking with bigger/faster/stronger are struggling.

I don't happen to believe the formation has much at all to do with whether a team has, or uses, an ability to keep the ball. My DD's team has played 4-5-1 for the last year. The 4-2-3-1 variant of the 4-5-1 is very common, and I've seen countless teams use it here in NTX and elsewhere. Our girls have had games with never ending long balls over the top to a fast fwd, and I've also seen same team, same girls, different day, play possession soccer in same formation with balls to feet, penetration long and short by both midfielders and outside backs, and gorgeous combination play.

The formation does not dictate the style of play, unless you're a rec coach pretending to be something you're not.

by JustaSport 15/10/13, 11:43 am

"I've no interest whatsoever in meeting you in person...LOL...I've seen all I need to know standing next to you all at D3 qualifying listening to your classy bunch yelling how the other team is playing kickball when your kids never put 3 passes together and sent all the same boot balls back the other way."

Two quick points, and then perhaps this thread can get back on track:

* I don't yell from the parent sideline. Anyone who knows me would tell you that.

* I have never said that my daughter's team does not play kickball. I think they are as guilty as every other PPL level group and several D2/D3 squads.

If you're going to lump me in with others, it's probably only fair to make sure I'm guilty of the accusation.

by GGoat 15/10/13, 02:27 pm

Well this has all been fun and got a little nasty which is even more fun. So do most people on the thread believe that field size doesn't matter. I say trying to play a control game on these small fields is hard because you don't have the space to spread the ball and on the 4-5-1 or the 4-4-2 it seems like the middle gets clogged and when the ball pops out to the forward or forwards its a 1 v 5 or 6 and the ball either goes to the keeper or gets cleared back to the middle. I cant count the number of times a mid plays the ball forward to the forward and the keeper picks it up because mid field to the 18 may only be 15 to 20 yards. It also seems like the mids do all the running many times they are sprinting 18 to 18 or longer and I feel like they are running for the ball rather than the ball doing the work with passing because you cant spread the field enough to have the space to pass.I don't know Im not a English or south American coach or player so that's why Im asking and what I notice from the sideline

by a-nonny-moose 15/10/13, 02:44 pm

I think I prefer a combination style (both long and short). Long ball on quick counter attacks to open targets, clearances balls in the defensive third, then posession through the midfield and attacking thirds of the field. I think that there is a time and a place for both styles. Girls need to know how to play the flighted ball into space, but also know how to play a ball to feet. I am seeing girls (at ECNL and select D1 and D2 levels) not realize that when a player is showing by facing the ball, the ball is played to feet. If the player is showing by making a run into space, the ball is played into the open space where they can receive it and continue the run. I see girls to always play to space or always play to feet. They have not been coached to make the decision based on the way a player shows for the ball.

The team I coach plays a modified 3 - 5 - 2 (because that is the system that bests fits my players strengths and weaknesses this year). We can manipulate the 5 mids (especially the 3 centers), but always have the outside mids very wide, and the 2 forward playing in tandum staying no more than 20 yards apart at any given time. This is what should happen, in THEORY! However, what actually takes place on "Any Given Saturday at 8:00 am at Railroad" can be much different.

We are having traditional growing pains coming out of a sweeper set, to the flat back set (I hate the term flat back, because they should NEVER be FLAT!), but need to be able to step up in game maturity and skill levels.

Rather than bickering over idology on long ball vs posession soccer, figure out a way to help teenage girls play consistently. Now...that would be something I would love to learn!

by a-nonny-moose 15/10/13, 02:50 pm

The long ball played to the keeper is an easy fix (again in theory---my girls know this, yet I am still seeing balls played to the keeper).....play the ball to the corner flag. You have more space (and room for error), plus the keeper cannot pick up the ball outside the 18 yard box. Penetrating passes made through the middle are rarely successful when the keeper and defense for the other team work together. These balls should be hit through a seam between the marking back and the center back, diagonal to the corner flag.

Have the midfield player start the run before the ball is played (anticipate), and she will have a better chance to getting to the ball, and carrying to the endline for a service into the box.

Keeper is out of play, because you kept the ball outside of the 18.

by giampiero boniperti 15/10/13, 02:55 pm

i can't tell who the fool is

anyway...tactics are overrated

by Lawnboy 15/10/13, 09:08 pm

a-nonny-moose wrote:I think I prefer a combination style (both long and short). Long ball on quick counter attacks to open targets, clearances balls in the defensive third, then posession through the midfield and attacking thirds of the field. I think that there is a time and a place for both styles. Girls need to know how to play the flighted ball into space, but also know how to play a ball to feet. I am seeing girls (at ECNL and select D1 and D2 levels) not realize that when a player is showing by facing the ball, the ball is played to feet. If the player is showing by making a run into space, the ball is played into the open space where they can receive it and continue the run. I see girls to always play to space or always play to feet. They have not been coached to make the decision based on the way a player shows for the ball.

The team I coach plays a modified 3 - 5 - 2 (because that is the system that bests fits my players strengths and weaknesses this year). We can manipulate the 5 mids (especially the 3 centers), but always have the outside mids very wide, and the 2 forward playing in tandum staying no more than 20 yards apart at any given time. This is what should happen, in THEORY! However, what actually takes place on "Any Given Saturday at 8:00 am at Railroad" can be much different.

We are having traditional growing pains coming out of a sweeper set, to the flat back set (I hate the term flat back, because they should NEVER be FLAT!), but need to be able to step up in game maturity and skill levels.

Rather than bickering over idology on long ball vs posession soccer, figure out a way to help teenage girls play consistently. Now...that would be something I would love to learn!

YES! You, sir, win the internets!

What a breath of fresh air to hear someone validate what the point I have been making for a couple of years now. A good team is balanced and knows how to play both based on what the other team gives them. Direct play is appropriate when the situation calls for it and is usually how a team gets their goals. Possession is equally appropriate when called for and is usually how a team seals a win.

It makes absolutely no sense to sit here and bash direct play ("long ball"), as if one should only play possession the entire game. No top-league team on the planet does that.

by Lawnboy 15/10/13, 09:09 pm

JustaSport wrote:
Lawnboy wrote:
JustaSport wrote:
GGoat wrote:sorry yall Im not the best smiley face formation maker the 1st one was the 4/5/1 The second is similar to the formation they played. They would push up to create a offside trap at times to where the back line was straight but many times during the game I would count 6 or 7 defenders against our 2 forwards. We were able to score in the 2nd half but at that point it 3-0 and they had moved a lot of girls to different positions and subbed a lot They had us 3-0 in the first half and when they attacked it seemed we were out numbered also with the 3 forward and the 2 mids that would come in an pick up trash. This formation to me seems to work much better on the smaller fields or maybe they where just a better team they had some great girls.
I agree; it could be combination of factors that made the opposing team seem so ubiquitous. It sounds like the girls playing really understood transition from offense to defense. Needless to say, any formation can be equally effective if it fits the team and the players know how to run it. But I have still yet to see a girls' select team run a true 4-5-1 and look good doing it. They may win, but the middle is always a mess of bodies as the mids run into each other. It can definitely be good against a superior team by keeping numbers slightly back and hoping for the game-changing breakaway by a ball played through (or usually over the top) to the lone forward... but that's one of the few positives in my humble opinion for any team that has not truly mastered it.
No no no! We could never have that! We must get away from the dump-and-run/kickball/jungle ball or whatever the soccer Nazis are calling it these days. Don't you know - we can't develop if we are winning.
I seem to have read that a time or two on here. In fact, isn't it true (on this forum, at least) that any ball played to a forward must originate from a defender, be passed on the ground to a midfielder, who then performs 3-4 sizzling 1v1 moves before passing the ball on the ground to the forward? I still can't figure out why we allow 50/50 balls to be delivered in the air via free kicks, goal kicks, keeper punts, and corner kicks. That's simply not "possession soccer"!

by Guest 15/10/13, 09:49 pm

Yes a good team is balanced. But the majority of our youth teams do 90pct long ball, and have real difficulty playing any other way. Don't believe me?....head out to UTD or railroad any given weekend and count how many teams you can find put 4 passes together. In air on ground...whatever u wanna call a pass. You won't need two hands.

Why is that? Because it's infinitely more simple to perennially recruit and teach kids where to stand and where to kick it than it is to develop a team full of technical players. Technical play takes years to develop, skill focused players and top notch coaching. Long ball takes nothing more than a good sales pitch to the parents of athletic kids....which is why long ball only teams get exposed when they get older and run up against teams that know how to play the game.

by giampiero boniperti 16/10/13, 08:53 am

the players don't have enough quality to play posession

by Guest 16/10/13, 09:10 am

4-3-3 wrote:Yes a good team is balanced. But the majority of our youth teams do 90pct long ball, and have real difficulty playing any other way. Don't believe me?....head out to UTD or railroad any given weekend and count how many teams you can find put 4 passes together. In air on ground...whatever u wanna call a pass. You won't need two hands.

Why is that? Because it's infinitely more simple to perennially recruit and teach kids where to stand and where to kick it than it is to develop a team full of technical players. Technical play takes years to develop, skill focused players and top notch coaching. Long ball takes nothing more than a good sales pitch to the parents of athletic kids....which is why long ball only teams get exposed when they get older and run up against teams that know how to play the game.

Longball soccer works in the girls game all the way to national teams. The US has always been a longball team and are the best in the World. Check out the thread about Baylor and TT. Apparently neither team could connect a pass and they are both ranked in the top 25 of girls college soccer. Speed, power and strength win the day in ladies soccer.

by Guest 16/10/13, 10:17 am

Long ball works. Cant deny that. Works best when your athletes are superior and the other team isnt cultured technically. But if all it takes is superior athletes, unc and Anson would still win every title every year. The game has changed. Technical ability plus athleticism will be the new standard....big and fast wont be enough.

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