Re: Guess Players Again - Solar Nero - Club Pass

by futbollove 28/10/14, 12:10 pm

Hard Practice wrote:
futbollove wrote:In that case, shame on Solar. Definitely NOT what the rule is intended for. Even I can't defend em on this one.
Really with all the snide remarks and stupid Emoticons you have made against those arguing against CPP this is all you have. An apology here would show a little class.

So you think that because one team used the rule in bad taste, legally I might add, that that is enough to do away with it all together? Surely that's not your argument. Was CPP used in this instance to get a favorable advantage? Sure looks like it. But neither I, nor you, or anyone other than the coach knows for certain. I've also seen where CPP was used for, what appears to be, again none of us knows for certain, true development. Are you,in those instances, going to apologize for your disapproval of the rule? After all, that would be the classy thing to do. I love you

by Hard Practice 28/10/14, 12:33 pm

futbollove no need to apologize since I have said the rule can be a positive thing. Look over my last post to another thread about the CPP (i include it below for you). More than once I said it has merit in spirit. It seasy to see why others give you a hard time since you seem to shoot off your mouth first before reading the facts. NO it looks like you owe more apologies.

By the way Haterinhohas a great thread on the subject going now "How to fix Lake Highlands".

Hard Practice wrote:
rockindaddy wrote:Been watching this forum for over 5 years and that has to be the all time winner in the self centered,( yeah for me and screw everybody else) post.Well done there has been some stiff competition.

RnD - Another great post.

My DD was not effected by a CPP system but there were guest players and a time when she lost playing time on a team we committed to and paid to be on. One tourney the coach brought in some guest players who took PT away from players who were actually on the team. I can tell you things look a lot different on this debate when your kid is sitting. As you say they develop while playing and if someone is coming in and taking that PT away they are not developing. I can tell you what happens to a lot of these kids is they leave the game. Not all develop at the same time and those with late birthdays often are behind especially at younger ages. The CPP is very easy to abuse especially when playing down. I agree with BWG that its not all bad and focus should be on improvements.

One of the other biggest problems with CPP touched on but not the focus in most of this is the skewing of relegation/promotion based on bringing in ringers. Yes you may get better by playing the better competition but what is wrong with a team rightfully earning promotion in their division against those actual teams in their division and playing a whole next season in the upper level. Say they miss out on a promotion to a Big club bringing down players to get a win for their club. For independent or small club teams trying to work their way up is a long slow process. It will likely take at least 3 years from a team to move from D3 to D1 without any hiccups in the process. Big clubs usually have a lot more power to get teams at a higher level from the start than the small club.

While I do not blame a parent for looking out for their DD first (Yes, I mean you HH) you are much less likely to have an unbiased opinion on this than those with no dog in the fight. From what I have read on here the CPP has been abused. Not always but obviously way more often than not. I love the idea of transparency and a list of which clubs are playing up and playing down and how many. Coaches also have their club and income to worry about and do not have all the players best interest in mind in this debate either. I would only allow playing up and limit the number of times per player per season.

by futbollove 28/10/14, 12:50 pm

Hard Practice wrote:futbollove no need to apologize since I have said the rule can be a positive thing. Look over my last post to another thread about the CPP (i include it below for you). More than once I said it has merit in spirit. It seasy to see why others give you a hard time since you seem to shoot off your mouth first before reading the facts. NO it looks like you owe more apologies.

By the way Haterinhohas a great thread on the subject going now "How to fix Lake Highlands".

Hard Practice wrote:
rockindaddy wrote:Been watching this forum for over 5 years and that has to be the all time winner in the self centered,( yeah for me and screw everybody else) post.Well done there has been some stiff competition.

RnD - Another great post.

My DD was not effected by a CPP system but there were guest players and a time when she lost playing time on a team we committed to and paid to be on. One tourney the coach brought in some guest players who took PT away from players who were actually on the team. I can tell you things look a lot different on this debate when your kid is sitting. As you say they develop while playing and if someone is coming in and taking that PT away they are not developing. I can tell you what happens to a lot of these kids is they leave the game. Not all develop at the same time and those with late birthdays often are behind especially at younger ages. The CPP is very easy to abuse especially when playing down. I agree with BWG that its not all bad and focus should be on improvements.

One of the other biggest problems with CPP touched on but not the focus in most of this is the skewing of relegation/promotion based on bringing in ringers. Yes you may get better by playing the better competition but what is wrong with a team rightfully earning promotion in their division against those actual teams in their division and playing a whole next season in the upper level. Say they miss out on a promotion to a Big club bringing down players to get a win for their club. For independent or small club teams trying to work their way up is a long slow process. It will likely take at least 3 years from a team to move from D3 to D1 without any hiccups in the process. Big clubs usually have a lot more power to get teams at a higher level from the start than the small club.

While I do not blame a parent for looking out for their DD first (Yes, I mean you HH) you are much less likely to have an unbiased opinion on this than those with no dog in the fight. From what I have read on here the CPP has been abused. Not always but obviously way more often than not. I love the idea of transparency and a list of which clubs are playing up and playing down and how many. Coaches also have their club and income to worry about and do not have all the players best interest in mind in this debate either. I would only allow playing up and limit the number of times per player per season.

So I owe you an apology for not spending my time and going through every single post that you have ever written on the subject- I'm sorry.
As for my stance on CPP, it's unwaivering. CPP shouldn't be banned because a few parents that wanted to win, actually lost or tied. CPP can be used for development which is why it's used in leagues all over. Can it be abused, sure. Just like any other rule. Does it spell the death of LH, not hardly.

by FierceLightning 28/10/14, 01:07 pm

In reading CPP as stated, the rule itself is altruistic and reasonable. Who wouldn't want this rule for their team! It's in the application of the rule that indicates the character of the coach/club and NOT that it is a bad rule. If you believe it is reasonable that EVERY coach/club realizes that CPP is to be used as development for less developed players and/or the need for players when short, then it's abuse is a character issue NOT necessarily the rule. If some coaches use the rule to develop players or when short players and NOT as a way to "game" the competition by bringing in "ringers" then they are utilizing it in "the spirit" of the rule. If a coach uses it to "game" the system and win at all costs by NOT adhering to "the spirit" of the rule, then it boils down to a character issue. The coach "gaming" the rule is of a lower character in the moment he/she does that. Perhaps shunning low character coaches that constantly do this by the parents is the solution, not trying to get rid of a good practice in proper application.

I have personally see coaches utilizing it the right way but in a pressure situation, that same coach somewhat abusing it to win. It was a moment of weakness and not a personality trait. It happens. Move On. If it becomes a habit, then parents need to shun this coach. It will stop. But that requires parents to make character building choices too!

Would most people agree that the rule is only abused now and then or it is abused all the time?

by imjustsayin 28/10/14, 01:21 pm

And I guess this means screw all the independent organizations...

by herradura 28/10/14, 02:24 pm

FierceLightning wrote:In reading CPP as stated, the rule itself is altruistic and reasonable. Who wouldn't want this rule for their team! It's in the application of the rule that indicates the character of the coach/club and NOT that it is a bad rule. If you believe it is reasonable that EVERY coach/club realizes that CPP is to be used as development for less developed players and/or the need for players when short, then it's abuse is a character issue NOT necessarily the rule. If some coaches use the rule to develop players or when short players and NOT as a way to "game" the competition by bringing in "ringers" then they are utilizing it in "the spirit" of the rule. If a coach uses it to "game" the system and win at all costs by NOT adhering to "the spirit" of the rule, then it boils down to a character issue. The coach "gaming" the rule is of a lower character in the moment he/she does that. Perhaps shunning low character coaches that constantly do this by the parents is the solution, not trying to get rid of a good practice in proper application.

I have personally see coaches utilizing it the right way but in a pressure situation, that same coach somewhat abusing it to win. It was a moment of weakness and not a personality trait. It happens. Move On. If it becomes a habit, then parents need to shun this coach. It will stop. But that requires parents to make character building choices too!

This...

by intrinsic 28/10/14, 03:57 pm

Coaching is a business. If your team is relegated, it is bad for your business. If a coach thinks other teams are using players from a higher division in order to gain competitive advantage, then the coach will feel justified in doing the same and will realize that not doing it places his/her team at a disadvantage. This is not due to "low character"- it is human nature (and a rational decision) in a competitive business environment. It is a bad rule because it does not recognize the influence of the business context, and because it leads to results that interfere with the intended benefits of promotion and relegation.

by SD69 28/10/14, 04:02 pm

intrinsic wrote:Coaching is a business. If your team is relegated, it is bad for your business. If a coach thinks other teams are using players from a higher division in order to gain competitive advantage, then the coach will feel justified in doing the same and will realize that not doing it places his/her team at a disadvantage. This is not due to "low character"- it is human nature (and a rational decision) in a competitive business environment. It is a bad rule because it does not recognize the influence of the business context, and because it leads to results that interfere with the intended benefits of promotion and relegation.

Yep. Much like a business that creates a monopoly can create an unfair advantage. What's needed here is the equivalent of an anti-trust rule that protects some of the smaller clubs (BTW, my DD plays for a bigger club).

by RightWingDad 28/10/14, 04:12 pm

[/quote]
I absolutely get what your whining is about, just don't agree with it. Play who is in front of you and quit crying. Is there abuse of the rule going on, certainly. Is the rule being used in the way it was intended, yes to that as well. But to complain about a younger player being player-passed?? Come on man!!
[/quote]

Play who is in front of you? Wait till they start letting boys play against girls. That day is out there don't 'cha know...unfortunately.

by FierceLightning 28/10/14, 04:26 pm

intrinsic wrote:Coaching is a business. If your team is relegated, it is bad for your business. If a coach thinks other teams are using players from a higher division in order to gain competitive advantage, then the coach will feel justified in doing the same and will realize that not doing it places his/her team at a disadvantage. This is not due to "low character"- it is human nature (and a rational decision) in a competitive business environment. It is a bad rule because it does not recognize the influence of the business context, and because it leads to results that interfere with the intended benefits of promotion and relegation.

Then what you are contending here is that the CPP rule was set up for a competitive advantage for a club to make money and NOT for it's stated purpose as read? Is that right? Is that what you are stating that CPP was designed for? Or do you mean that that is "how" it is used, but it's intention was altruistic?

by intrinsic 28/10/14, 04:32 pm

I did not speculate on any of the things you are asking about. The point is that such a rule will be used to gain competitive advantage because-well, I already said it above.

by Hard Practice 28/10/14, 04:34 pm

I don't believe for a second those big clubs don't know the rule helps them more than small clubs. In theory is it a good rule? Sure, but it can also be used to sell their product as an advantage to bring in more players therefore more $$. Also keeping their teams in higher divisions helps bring in $$ which plays into their advantage.

by FierceLightning 28/10/14, 04:35 pm

intrinsic wrote:I did not speculate on any of the things you are asking about. The point is that such a rule will be used to gain competitive advantage because-well, I already said it above.

Then you DO agree with me that for those that use it improperly to get a competitive advantage to keep players and thus make money for themselves and the club are utilizing it the wrong way and therefore, of low character? Right, since it was NOT intended for that purpose? Or do you contend that it was written for that purpose to get a competitive advantage to make money?

by Hard Practice 28/10/14, 04:40 pm

The large clubs directors will do about anything to keep themselves in the money. Do not overlook the potential influence on money in any decision. In my state the two big local clubs had a falling out with the biggest taking their teams and forming their own in-house league. Splitting the local competition in two hurting development. Then in a complete act of contempt for the other they had the swing vote in where to hold the State Cup playoffs. Down to the final two options rather than vote with the local group who was their competitor. They voted with the other option and sent the local teams (which make up over 80% of the teams in the State Cup) 4 hours away to play State Cup. I wouldn't trust them father than you can throw them.

by Guest 28/10/14, 05:28 pm

FierceLightning wrote:
Then you DO agree with me that for those that use it improperly to get a competitive advantage to keep players and thus make money for themselves and the club are utilizing it the wrong way and therefore, of low character? Right, since it was NOT intended for that purpose? Or do you contend that it was written for that purpose to get a competitive advantage to make money?

A little off topic but just my 2 cents….I find it concerning that so many posters are upset about the “low character” of the clubs/coaches because of their use of CPP. Yet I hear very little on the boards about the character of the coaches/clubs when it comes to poor treatment of the girls, which I hear about and see on a regular basis (i.e. verbal abuse, belittlement, lies etc)

Don’t get me wrong- I am not a fan of the CPP in LHGCL as it is currently implemented. But I am far more concerned about the character of the coaches/clubs as it relates to their direct behavior and influence on NTX girls.

I could be wrong here but it seems the NTX soccer community is saying….impact W/L’s by using CPP/guests (whatever) well you have low character. Verbally abuse little girls, but get W’s..crickets. I wish it could be the other way around.

by sccrprntsrcrazy 28/10/14, 10:11 pm

bigtex wrote:
FierceLightning wrote:
Then you DO agree with me that for those that use it improperly to get a competitive advantage to keep players and thus make money for themselves and the club are utilizing it the wrong way and therefore, of low character? Right, since it was NOT intended for that purpose? Or do you contend that it was written for that purpose to get a competitive advantage to make money?

A little off topic but just my 2 cents….I find it concerning that so many posters are upset about the “low character” of the clubs/coaches because of their use of CPP. Yet I hear very little on the boards about the character of the coaches/clubs when it comes to poor treatment of the girls, which I hear about and see on a regular basis (i.e. verbal abuse, belittlement, lies etc)

Don’t get me wrong- I am not a fan of the CPP in LHGCL as it is currently implemented. But I am far more concerned about the character of the coaches/clubs as it relates to their direct behavior and influence on NTX girls.

I could be wrong here but it seems the NTX soccer community is saying….impact W/L’s by using CPP/guests (whatever) well you have low character. Verbally abuse little girls, but get W’s..crickets. I wish it could be the other way around.

Very very true and these same parents crying in here about it are the one's that will sit silently on the sideline while there coach on the other side screams, insults and belittles there dd all too say there child is on a top team.

by FierceLightning 29/10/14, 08:45 am

bigtex wrote:
FierceLightning wrote:
Then you DO agree with me that for those that use it improperly to get a competitive advantage to keep players and thus make money for themselves and the club are utilizing it the wrong way and therefore, of low character? Right, since it was NOT intended for that purpose? Or do you contend that it was written for that purpose to get a competitive advantage to make money?

A little off topic but just my 2 cents….I find it concerning that so many posters are upset about the “low character” of the clubs/coaches because of their use of CPP. Yet I hear very little on the boards about the character of the coaches/clubs when it comes to poor treatment of the girls, which I hear about and see on a regular basis (i.e. verbal abuse, belittlement, lies etc)

Don’t get me wrong- I am not a fan of the CPP in LHGCL as it is currently implemented. But I am far more concerned about the character of the coaches/clubs as it relates to their direct behavior and influence on NTX girls.

I could be wrong here but it seems the NTX soccer community is saying….impact W/L’s by using CPP/guests (whatever) well you have low character. Verbally abuse little girls, but get W’s..crickets. I wish it could be the other way around.

You are right, this is off topic. Very important subject as the abuse of CPP is. Perhaps a new thread by you is warranted.

Me personally, I would never allow my child to be derided and verbally abused by a coach. But then my DD plays with a coach of high character that provides discipline and support for her development. It's the reason WHY she plays on this team. How about you? Does you DD play on a team where the coach does not scream at her?

by Guest 29/10/14, 09:25 am

FierceLightning wrote:
bigtex wrote:
FierceLightning wrote:
Then you DO agree with me that for those that use it improperly to get a competitive advantage to keep players and thus make money for themselves and the club are utilizing it the wrong way and therefore, of low character? Right, since it was NOT intended for that purpose? Or do you contend that it was written for that purpose to get a competitive advantage to make money?

A little off topic but just my 2 cents….I find it concerning that so many posters are upset about the “low character” of the clubs/coaches because of their use of CPP. Yet I hear very little on the boards about the character of the coaches/clubs when it comes to poor treatment of the girls, which I hear about and see on a regular basis (i.e. verbal abuse, belittlement, lies etc)

Don’t get me wrong- I am not a fan of the CPP in LHGCL as it is currently implemented. But I am far more concerned about the character of the coaches/clubs as it relates to their direct behavior and influence on NTX girls.

I could be wrong here but it seems the NTX soccer community is saying….impact W/L’s by using CPP/guests (whatever) well you have low character. Verbally abuse little girls, but get W’s..crickets. I wish it could be the other way around.

You are right, this is off topic. Very important subject as the abuse of CPP is. Perhaps a new thread by you is warranted.

Me personally, I would never allow my child to be derided and verbally abused by a coach. But then my DD plays with a coach of high character that provides discipline and support for her development. It's the reason WHY she plays on this team. How about you? Does you DD play on a team where the coach does not scream at her?

I thought that would be a given by my post, but no the coach does not scream at either of my daughters that play for him or anyone else on their teams.

by FierceLightning 29/10/14, 09:31 am

bigtex wrote:
FierceLightning wrote:
bigtex wrote:
FierceLightning wrote:
Then you DO agree with me that for those that use it improperly to get a competitive advantage to keep players and thus make money for themselves and the club are utilizing it the wrong way and therefore, of low character? Right, since it was NOT intended for that purpose? Or do you contend that it was written for that purpose to get a competitive advantage to make money?

A little off topic but just my 2 cents….I find it concerning that so many posters are upset about the “low character” of the clubs/coaches because of their use of CPP. Yet I hear very little on the boards about the character of the coaches/clubs when it comes to poor treatment of the girls, which I hear about and see on a regular basis (i.e. verbal abuse, belittlement, lies etc)

Don’t get me wrong- I am not a fan of the CPP in LHGCL as it is currently implemented. But I am far more concerned about the character of the coaches/clubs as it relates to their direct behavior and influence on NTX girls.

I could be wrong here but it seems the NTX soccer community is saying….impact W/L’s by using CPP/guests (whatever) well you have low character. Verbally abuse little girls, but get W’s..crickets. I wish it could be the other way around.

You are right, this is off topic. Very important subject as the abuse of CPP is. Perhaps a new thread by you is warranted.

Me personally, I would never allow my child to be derided and verbally abused by a coach. But then my DD plays with a coach of high character that provides discipline and support for her development. It's the reason WHY she plays on this team. How about you? Does you DD play on a team where the coach does not scream at her?

I thought that would be a given by my post, but no the coach does not scream at either of my daughters that play for him or anyone else on their teams.

Good to hear..How about starting a new thread about this topic?

One last question, what was the reason you decided to down play abuse of CPP topic and interject a comment about abusive coaching? Was it that you think abusing CPP is ok or you don't care or...?

by imjustsayin 29/10/14, 09:53 am

My guess is they have never been on the receiving end of a coach that has abused the CPP...

by Guest 29/10/14, 09:58 am

once again this is a simple fix, NO PLAYING DOWN. You want a CPP? it goes up, then a kid is rewarded and a team thinks long and hard about using her. Not we have a big club, hey lets use d1 players to save our bacon in d3....

by Guest 29/10/14, 10:11 am

FierceLightning wrote:
bigtex wrote:
FierceLightning wrote:
bigtex wrote:
FierceLightning wrote:
Then you DO agree with me that for those that use it improperly to get a competitive advantage to keep players and thus make money for themselves and the club are utilizing it the wrong way and therefore, of low character? Right, since it was NOT intended for that purpose? Or do you contend that it was written for that purpose to get a competitive advantage to make money?

A little off topic but just my 2 cents….I find it concerning that so many posters are upset about the “low character” of the clubs/coaches because of their use of CPP. Yet I hear very little on the boards about the character of the coaches/clubs when it comes to poor treatment of the girls, which I hear about and see on a regular basis (i.e. verbal abuse, belittlement, lies etc)

Don’t get me wrong- I am not a fan of the CPP in LHGCL as it is currently implemented. But I am far more concerned about the character of the coaches/clubs as it relates to their direct behavior and influence on NTX girls.

I could be wrong here but it seems the NTX soccer community is saying….impact W/L’s by using CPP/guests (whatever) well you have low character. Verbally abuse little girls, but get W’s..crickets. I wish it could be the other way around.

You are right, this is off topic. Very important subject as the abuse of CPP is. Perhaps a new thread by you is warranted.

Me personally, I would never allow my child to be derided and verbally abused by a coach. But then my DD plays with a coach of high character that provides discipline and support for her development. It's the reason WHY she plays on this team. How about you? Does you DD play on a team where the coach does not scream at her?

I thought that would be a given by my post, but no the coach does not scream at either of my daughters that play for him or anyone else on their teams.

Good to hear..How about starting a new thread about this topic?

One last question, what was the reason you decided to down play abuse of CPP topic and interject a comment about abusive coaching? Was it that you think abusing CPP is ok or you don't care or...?

I am in no way down playing CPP discussion…I also am not a fan of how LHGCL is implementing the rule. Personally I have bigger concerns with NTX soccer than this rule, but I understand why many find this to be a very big issue.

The reason I committed was because the term “low character” was used to describe the coach solely because he utilized the CPP rule. Unless there are other reasons you did not bring up? There are some coaches I have seen or heard about that probably could be said to have “low character”, but it certainly has nothing to do with how he/she chooses to use an approved rule.

I have no dog in this fight and I can certainly understand why it would be a point of frustration in this situation. But to say the coach has low character based on this alone, for me is going too far, especially given the other true character issues out there.

by Tiki-taka 29/10/14, 10:40 am

What is the parents say in this matter? Meaning if a coach approached my DD about playing down a division for a game, I as a parent would want to step in and do a risk/reward analysis. Why is my DD being asked to play down? Is she not good enough for her current team? The coach by approaching her may have just shot her confidence or sent a message. If it is to help a team, do I get to say "no"? Is risking my DD's health for a game, that really has no bearing on her own team, worth it? If there is an injury issue, and no subs available at all, or a critical skill position (goalie), then maybe that may play into my decision to help our common club family. But long term, the risk of injury is too great. I would think most parents would balk at their DD playing down. Maybe the ego is controlling the situation and the Parent is not being the "Parent" and making best decisions for the player being asked to play additional games.

by Barca 29/10/14, 12:18 pm

bigtex wrote:
I could be wrong here but it seems the NTX soccer community is saying….impact W/L’s by using CPP/guests (whatever) well you have low character. Verbally abuse little girls, but get W’s..crickets. I wish it could be the other way around.

Post a new thread about this.

by Barca 29/10/14, 12:25 pm

Tiki-taka wrote:What is the parents say in this matter? Meaning if a coach approached my DD about playing down a division for a game, I as a parent would want to step in and do a risk/reward analysis. Why is my DD being asked to play down? Is she not good enough for her current team? The coach by approaching her may have just shot her confidence or sent a message. If it is to help a team, do I get to say "no"? Is risking my DD's health for a game, that really has no bearing on her own team, worth it? If there is an injury issue, and no subs available at all, or a critical skill position (goalie), then maybe that may play into my decision to help our common club family. But long term, the risk of injury is too great. I would think most parents would balk at their DD playing down. Maybe the ego is controlling the situation and the Parent is not being the "Parent" and making best decisions for the player being asked to play additional games.

We live in a small community where our path's are more prone to cross than not. I'll venture to say that the parents know other parents and this was an opportunity for there dd to get more playing time & development. I doubt it was coach initiated. Parents initiated it and coach pulled the trigger. I love Sparta and there team. You are better than this. Play whose in front of you. You will always be at a disadvantage (Indy) less your club where to some day merge with another club.

by Koba 29/10/14, 12:59 pm

Barca, development for SRSA03 girls does not occur in a younger age group, D3 game. That's absurd.
These particular kids would have gotten far more out of an intra-squad workout. This move was about keeping a team in the league. Period end of story.

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